New news about lead in LBV's hair ->death

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Peter,

Thank you for your politeness. I still stick to my opinions based on what I've read by other professionals in regard to the lead poisoning theory.
As far as the Konversationshefte referenced, I only speak English and some French therefore anything else is out of my reach. However, I do have printed copies of letters Beethoven wrote to individuals throughout his life and those symptoms he complained of do fit the description of lead intoxication, among other things.

You are wrong. Beethoven never suffered from a single symptom of lead intoxication. Here's an interesting article.

Whether the German version is more complete than this one I have no way of knowing.

The last volume of the conversation books was published but in 2001. As far as I know there is no English translation of this volume yet.

A fellow member has promised to oblige me with a copy of Beethoven's autopsy report,

Here it is:

The external ear was large and regularly formed, the scaphoid fossa, but more especially the concha, was very spacious and half as large again as usual; the various angles and sinuosities were strongly marked. The external auditory canal was covered with shining scales, particularly in the vicinity of the tympanum, which was concealed by them. The Eustachian tube was much thickened, its mucous lining swollen and somewhat contracted about the osseous portion of the tube. In front of its orifice and towards the tonsils some dimpled scars were observable. The principal cells of the Mastoid process, which was large and not marked by any notch, were lined with a vascular mucous membrane. The whole substance of the Os petrosum showed a similar degree of vascularity, being traversed by vessels of considerable size, more particularly in the region of the cochlea, the membranous part of its spinal lamina appearing slightly reddened.

The facial nerves were of unusual thickness, the auditory nerves, on the contrary, were shrivelled and destitute of neurina; the accompanying arteries were dilated to more than the size of a crowquill, and cartilaginous. The left auditory nerve, much the thinnest, arose by three very thin greyish striae, the right by one strong clear-white stria from the substance of the fourth ventricle, which was at this point much more consistent and vascular than in other parts. The convolutions of the brain were full of water, and remarkably white; they appeared very much deeper, wider, and more numerous than ordinary. The Calvarium exhibited throughout great density and a thickness amounting to about half an inch.

The cavity of the Chest, together with the organs within it, was in the normal condition. In the cavity of the Abdomen four quarts of a greyish-brown turbid fluid were effused. The Liver appeared shrunk up to half its proper volume, of a leathery consistence and greenish-blue colour, and was beset with knots, the size of a bean, on its tuberculated surface, as well as in its substance; all its vessels were very much narrowed, and bloodless. The Gall-bladder contained a dark-brown fluid, besides an abundance of gravelly sediment. The Spleen was found to be more than double its proper size, darkcoloured, and firm. The Pancreas was equally hard and firm, its excretory duct being as wide as a goosequill. The Stomach, together with the Bowels, was greatly distended with air. Both Kidneys were invested by cellular membrane of an inch thick, and infiltrated with a brown turbid fluid; their tissue was pale-red and opened out. Every one of their calices was occupied by a calcareous concretion of a wart-like shape and as large as a split-pea. The body was much emaciated.

Dr. Johann Wagner
Assistant in the Pathological Museum

As for Wawruch's records, I was not aware any list of medications was ever preserved by him. Therefore, yes, it is a lot of assumption.

Wawruch had nothing to do with the puncture of Beethoven's abdomen. This was all done by the surgeon Johann Seibert who also took care of the bandages.

Lastly, I came across this two days ago and have been perusing it at my leisure:

http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-en...ol-2-272.shtml

Lady Wallace's translation was published in 1866. It is outrageously incomplete.

[Quijote]

In reference to the term Samothracian, I found this on the letters site tonight. Don't know how I missed it before, but could someone clear this up a little better for me? I assumed it was in reference to the other I quoted earlier.

J

[Footnote 2: "By the word 'Samothracian,' Beethoven alludes to the Samothracian Mysteries, partly grounded on music. Their mutual participation in the Beethoven Mysteries is intended to be thus indicated. Among the initiated were also Brunswick, Lichnowsky, and Zmeskall." [From a
note of Schindler's on the subject.]]

Dear TiberiaClaudia (hereafter referred to as 'TC'), for an enlightening explanation of the term 'Samothracian', please read Maynard Solomon, 'Late Beethoven, Music, Thought, Imagination', University of California Press 2003. Solomon raises an intriguing hypothesis : that in calling Schindler a 'Samothracian' LvB was inferring that the Swindler was a homosexual.

[Quijote]

Dear Cetto von Cronstorff - I am happy to see you on this forum. Why have you not manifested yourself before?

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

That's exactly the point. You refuse to delve deeper into the topic and stick to simple and false explanations. You don't know a thing about Andreas Wawruch's medical expertise and I bet you haven't even read the last volume of the Konversationshefte. You represent the majority of the audience and therefore unscholarly nonsense will forever spread like a fungus.

TiberiaClaudia

Cetto von Cronstorff (real name Michael Lorenz) is widely known for his rudeness and arrogance. Take no notice of him.

From time to time I have wondered if he and his research activities are paid in whole or part by the state and, if so, whether he realises the implications of that.

I think not. Examine the quote above carefully; it is revealing and, in addition, makes exactly the same mistake that he accuses you of making.

A pity: he doubtless has much to offer, but ...

Euan

That's what I was referring to earlier: you spread misinformation and in this particular case you also insult me by confusing me with this mor... with whom I have nothing to do. You are unable to add anything to the discussion and if this is all you can offer, I can vividly imagine how far your imagination can reach regarding Beethoven's final illness. By the way, on top of all this you are violating the rules of this forum.

[Quijote]

Splendid exchanges. This forum is going to make my Christmas.

[Peter]

By the way, on top of all this you are violating the rules of this forum.

Indeed and in the Christmas spirit I hope we can move on and refrain from personal insults. If not, further such exchanges will meet with deletion.

[Quijote]

Let it run Peter, this could prove to be interesting; if you don't mind.

[PDG]

I disagree with you, Philip. Look at Peter's cartoon avatar - he looks deadly serious to me!

Even though Cetto seems to be a bit of a dinosaur, I think that "naming" another member should be disallowed, just as it is in our UK House Of Commons. And that instead, the terms: "Honourable Gentleman/Lady" should be used.

Huff, Puff & Stuff...

[Quijote]

Reluctant though I am, I must defer to PDG's immense wisdom. Spoilsport. Big smelly onion, rake-stomping hooligan ...

[PDG]

More like a Glass Onion...
I told you 'bout Strawberry Fields...

[Peter]

Let it run Peter, this could prove to be interesting; if you don't mind.

I'm pleased you've since been crushed by the immense wisdom of PDG - We try to maintain a tolerant, civilised forum here! Merry xmas.

[Michael]

I disagree with you, Philip. Look at Peter's cartoon avatar - he looks deadly serious to me!

Indeed! I think I may have to change my own avatar as it is detracting somewhat from the depth and brilliant insights of my postings. Also, I must make it clear that it's a cartoon of Beethoven, not me. We do have a slight resemblance around the eyes - in a profound spiritual sense - but that's it.
I would like to wish all members a happy Christmas (and I don't want any replies saying "You are wrong! Christmas is on the 29th of July - see Chapter XXXII of the Apocrypha of St. Erasmus")
I am attaching (at no extra charge) some icons, so that nobody will be offended .....

[Euan Mackinnon]

Even though [...] , I think that "naming" another member should be disallowed, just as it is in our UK House Of Commons. And that instead, the terms: "Honourable Gentleman/Lady" should be used.

Accepted. I withdraw the name. However, not the sentiment (Xmas notwithstanding). Rudeness is rudeness at any time of the year and the Honourable Gentlemen exhibited considerable rudeness.

TiberiaClaudia freely acknowledged lack of scholarship. On the other hand she showed enthusiasm in spades. Let me then say (and prepare to argue if challenged) that, in my view and where Beethoven (or any art/artist) is concerned, an ounce of enthusiasm is worth a ton of scholarship where the latter is paid for by the state.

Euan

[Michael]

Let me then say (and prepare to argue if challenged) that, in my view and where Beethoven (or any art/artist) is concerned, an ounce of enthusiasm is worth a ton of scholarship [/I].

Euan

I totally agree. Where enthusiasm is concerned, I am second to nobody. Regarding scholarship, there are many people in this forum who have forgotten more about music than I ever learned. They have generously supplied this knowledge when asked and have politely corrected any errors I may have put forward without making me feel I have made an idiot of myself. This is what I joined up for!

[Quijote]

I'm pleased you've since been crushed by the immense wisdom of PDG - We try to maintain a tolerant, civilised forum here! Merry xmas.

Merry Christmas to you too, Peter ! And to that rake-stomper PDG !!! And all the other forum members, too.

Bonnes fêtes !!