New news about lead in LBV's hair ->death

[Peter]

Of course, a lot of this is assumption. But the hair and the bone contain what they do for a reason. The magic fairy doesn't just swoop down and insert lead in miscellanous individuals whilst they sleep on filthy straw mattresses. Bottom line for me based on what I've read: Medical treatments in combination with daily activities containing lead (that would otherwise not bother fairly healthy individuals) in combination of more medical treatments over a course of time are what did LvB in. Wawruch, perhaps, just put the final nail in the coffin.

J.

I think by the time Wawruch attended Beethoven there was no hope anyway. As to the lead theory, well as you have pointed out everyone was exposed to this to a degree considered unacceptable today. I think Beethoven died of a combination of factors and that lead alone cannot be singled out for blame. In anycase I'm sure that 56 was a good age and above average in those days.

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

I hardly consider myself the scholarly type, so I'll get that out of the way right now.

That's exactly the point. You refuse to delve deeper into the topic and stick to simple and false explanations. You don't know a thing about Andreas Wawruch's medical expertise and I bet you haven't even read the last volume of the Konversationshefte. You represent the majority of the audience and therefore unscholarly nonsense will forever spread like a fungus.

[Peter]

That's exactly the point. You refuse to delve deeper into the topic and stick to simple and false explanations. You don't know a thing about Andreas Wawruch's medical expertise and I bet you haven't even read the last volume of the Konversationshefte. You represent the majority of the audience and therefore unscholarly nonsense will forever spread like a fungus.

I think that a little unfair. I respect your knowledge and expertise Cetto but you cannot expect others here to have the resources, inclination or the specialist training required for academic research - such comments would be more appropiately directed to the likes of Reiter and music journals rather than students and keen amateur music enthusiasts who visit here. In anycase, the best education is through positive encouragement and criticism, not negative ridicule.

I am not aware that the conversation books have been translated into English - I believe Theodore Albrecht has translated some but are they generally available? Certainly his 3 volume letters to Beethoven is very useful and much appreciated. The Beethovenhaus lists many books and resources that I would be greatly interested in (including a cookbook!) but as yet only available in German.

[TiberiaClaudia]

My Dear Cetto,

My, aren't we full of ourselves.

Excuse me for having an opinion and for not being so advanced as yourself, Cetto.

In future I deign not to respond to a word out of your keyboard.

Have a nice life, or whatever it is you have in your little condescending world of professionalism.

Signed disrespectfully yours,

J, Brainowner.

[TiberiaClaudia]

Peter,

Thank you for your politeness. I still stick to my opinions based on what I've read by other professionals in regard to the lead poisoning theory.
As far as the Konversationshefte referenced, I only speak English and some French therefore anything else is out of my reach. However, I do have printed copies of letters Beethoven wrote to individuals throughout his life and those symptoms he complained of do fit the description of lead intoxication, among other things. I also was fortunate enough to have been given an english version of the conversation texts by my husband for Christmas a couple years ago. Whether the German version is more complete than this one I have no way of knowing. It is unfortunate that I cannot locate the book now, however, since when we moved we never fully unpacked everything...

I would prefer it if someone could direct me in an area where they can blatantly disprove the lead theory. A fellow member has promised to oblige me with a copy of Beethoven's autopsy report, so I finally get to read that in full. As for Wawruch's records, I was not aware any list of medications was ever preserved by him. Therefore, yes, it is a lot of assumption. If there are any records you do know of please send me the link, I would be keen to read these, as well.

Lastly, I came across this two days ago and have been perusing it at my leisure:

http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-en...ol-2-272.shtml

I hope it interests you, Peter. As I have typed elsewhere, I am interested in the relationship between Schindler and Beethoven. Those areas in the letters depict some of the strange relationship shared between LvB and the "Moravian numskull."

Kindly,
J.

[Sorrano]

Peter,



Lastly, I came across this two days ago and have been perusing it at my leisure:

http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-en...ol-2-272.shtml

I hope it interests you, Peter. As I have typed elsewhere, I am interested in the relationship between Schindler and Beethoven. Those areas in the letters depict some of the strange relationship shared between LvB and the "Moravian numskull."

Kindly,
J.

Nice resource, there, thanks for sharing that!

[Quijote]

You fools, you stones, you worse than senseless things! It was Tracy Emin (or John Tavener) who killed our belovèd LvB.

[PDG]

You fools, you stones, you worse than senseless things! It was Tracy Emin (or John Tavener) who killed our belovèd LvB.

Our beloved? Still not sure which way you're swinging, Phil (no pun intended). There's a good joke I know about the Eiffel Tower which I'll relate next time...

PS. I don't think the Rolling Stones post here (though I could be wrong...).

[Quijote]

PDG - my dear 1000-posts club-swinging rake stomping king onion : my beloved Beethoven is the same as yours, though we view him differently, that's all. I'm off to bed, dear chap. Goodnight!

[PDG]

Spoilsport. I'm still wide awake....zzzzzzzzzzz.......

Bright copper kettles and warm woollen mittens...

[Peter]

Peter,


I hope it interests you, Peter. As I have typed elsewhere, I am interested in the relationship between Schindler and Beethoven. Those areas in the letters depict some of the strange relationship shared between LvB and the "Moravian numskull."

Kindly,
J.

Yes the letters are very revealing and interesting - I have a selection translated by Emily Anderson and a few decades back read the entire collection though I believe more have recently been published.

As to Schindler, despite my previous comments on his character I can sympathise to an extent. Beethoven was obviously not an easy person to get on with - he constantly fell out with people, so he found in Schindler a willing servant and he probably exploited the man's vanity and his own superiority as an artist.

[Euan Mackinnon]

That's exactly the point. You refuse to delve deeper into the topic and stick to simple and false explanations. You don't know a thing about Andreas Wawruch's medical expertise and I bet you haven't even read the last volume of the Konversationshefte. You represent the majority of the audience and therefore unscholarly nonsense will forever spread like a fungus.

TiberiaClaudia

Cetto von Cronstorff (real name Michael Lorenz) is widely known for his rudeness and arrogance. Take no notice of him.

From time to time I have wondered if he and his research activities are paid in whole or part by the state and, if so, whether he realises the implications of that.

I think not. Examine the quote above carefully; it is revealing and, in addition, makes exactly the same mistake that he accuses you of making.

A pity: he doubtless has much to offer, but ...

Euan

[TiberiaClaudia]

Misc.

Euan-'Tis why I refuse to spend another second of my life on the man. People of all levels of interest and experience are here to talk about Beethoven, not to argue with some stuffy twit who refuses to see the forest for the trees!
Over the past couple of days I've made some other, great new acquaintences here. Thanks for your courteous message to me, I count you among them.

Peter-I love to read things like letters and other primary sources. On google books previews you can get excerpts of Beethoven through the eyes of his contemporaries. There is a little story about a veal incident that's kind of interesting, Beethoven's friends must certainly had to have handled him with kid gloves at all times! Anyway, when the mandatory spending of Christmas is past I would like to purchase that book for my collection, as well.

Yeah, LvB was so contrary in his moods. On the one hand, Schindler was the contemptible, Moravian Numskull, then he invited him to 2:30 dinner. He had all these nicknamey jibes for Schindler and later on in the letters, was concerned after his health and invited him to stay with him until whatever matter at hand was resolved.

LvB wrote: BEETHOVEN. 349. TO SCHINDLER. August, 1823. "YOU SAMOTHRACIAN VILLAIN!-- Make haste and come..."


These samothracians I looked up: THE SAMOTHRAKIAN KORYBANTES (or Corybantes) were seven daimones who presided over the Korybantic dance of the Mysteries of Samothrake. The korybas was an orgiastic dance performed by armoured men with clashing spear and shield, accompanied by the beat of tambourines and drums and the cries of the mystic devotees.

I laughed out loud when I saw him refer to his brother, Johann, as the "Braineater."

The correspondences with his nephew leave me with a very, very sad feeling.

Of course all this, along with his music, is what makes Beethoven so fascinating...I am happy that this link proved to be a valuable resource!

Jenn

PS-The link to the veal story: http://books.google.com/books?id=Rf5...r76k5lOK-WLV2M

[TiberiaClaudia]

In reference to the term Samothracian, I found this on the letters site tonight. Don't know how I missed it before, but could someone clear this up a little better for me? I assumed it was in reference to the other I quoted earlier.

J

[Footnote 2: "By the word 'Samothracian,' Beethoven alludes to the Samothracian Mysteries, partly grounded on music. Their mutual participation in the Beethoven Mysteries is intended to be thus indicated. Among the initiated were also Brunswick, Lichnowsky, and Zmeskall." [From a
note of Schindler's on the subject.]]

[Peter]

In reference to the term Samothracian, I found this on the letters site tonight. Don't know how I missed it before, but could someone clear this up a little better for me? I assumed it was in reference to the other I quoted earlier.

J

[Footnote 2: "By the word 'Samothracian,' Beethoven alludes to the Samothracian Mysteries, partly grounded on music. Their mutual participation in the Beethoven Mysteries is intended to be thus indicated. Among the initiated were also Brunswick, Lichnowsky, and Zmeskall." [From a
note of Schindler's on the subject.]]

Yes Beethoven was fond of these puns and word games - he often addressed his friends and associates in such terms which were not meant as insults. For example he referred to the violinist Schuppanzigh (on account of his corpulence) as Falstaff and wrote a choral piece for him "Lob auf den Dicken" (praise to fatness!).

Beethoven's interest in ancient Greece is well known and the Samothracrian mysteries were of great interest to the intellectuals and educated amongst his generation. Many ancient writers referred to these rituals, Herodotus, Aristophanes, but it was probably Plutarch where Beethoven read about them.