New news about lead in LBV's hair ->death

[Peter]

Tchaikovsky wouldn't have witnessed anything since he committed suicide.

Possibly he did (it is far from certain), but also modern anti-depressants may have averted such action. Certainly help would have been available that wasn't then, which brings us back to Beethoven and why no blame can be put on the doctors who treated him with the limited knowledge they had.

[Joy]

In our newspaper there was an article also which stated that 'a dramatic spike in the lead concentrations followed each of the doctor's five treatments between Dec. 5th, 1826 and Feb. 27th, 1827.' This was in regards to their charting the composer's final four months through the hairs. They established day by day correlations between Beethoven's bedside medical treatments at the hands of Wawruch and lead concentrations in the composer's body. But I do agree with Peter about the limited knowledge they had and that would have restricted their procedures of course.

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

In our newspaper there was an article also which stated that 'a dramatic spike in the lead concentrations followed each of the doctor's five treatments between Dec. 5th, 1826 and Feb. 27th, 1827.' This was in regards to their charting the composer's final four months through the hairs. They established day by day correlations between Beethoven's bedside medical treatments at the hands of Wawruch and lead concentrations in the composer's body. But I do agree with Peter about the limited knowledge they had and that would have restricted their procedures of course.

This is all based on unproven assumptions. Reiter's article was originally published in the 'Newsletter of the Vienna Beethoven Society' and from a scholarly point of view it is worthless, because like a piece from a newsletter it lacks all necessary data. That Wawruch's treatment caused a higher lead concentration is nothing but an UNPROVEN ASSUMPTION. An assumption that stands in striking contrast to Wawruch's written statement published in 1840 that 'Beethoven's abdominal wound must be kept absolutely dry'. The history of Beethoven's final illness is a little more complicated than most journalists think.

[Joy]

This is all based on unproven assumptions. Reiter's article was originally published in the 'Newsletter of the Vienna Beethoven Society' and from a scholarly point of view it is worthless, because like a piece from a newsletter it lacks all necessary data. That Wawruch's treatment caused a higher lead concentration is nothing but an UNPROVEN ASSUMPTION. An assumption that stands in striking contrast to Wawruch's written statement published in 1840 that 'Beethoven's abdominal wound must be kept absolutely dry'. The history of Beethoven's final illness is a little more complicated than most journalists think.

Well, I didn't say I believed the article I just was passing on what our newspaper had printed along with others here.

[terry]

It doesn't seem a... new piece of news.
The Italian writer Buscaroli in his big biography defends Wawhruch strenuously against Malfatti, who prenscribed punch to a man suffering of liver ("epatite" in English?)!

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

It doesn't seem a... new piece of news.
The Italian writer Buscaroli in his big biography defends Wawhruch strenuously against Malfatti, who prenscribed punch to a man suffering of liver ("epatite" in English?)!

Wawruch needs no defense. Malfatti knew very well that Beethoven was in a state beyond recovery. The punch icecream he prescribed was meant to work as a mere painkiller and sedative.

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Severe doubts have recently been cast on Reiter's flimsy hypothesis:

Josef Eisinger. "The lead in Beethoven's hair", Toxicological & Environmental Chemistry, Volume 90, Issue 1 January 2008 , pages 1 - 5.

Abstract:
In the past several years a number of inadequately substantiated reports appeared in the popular media, asserting that lead (Pb) found in Beethoven's hair indicated that he was a victim of Pb poisoning and suggesting that lead played a role in his deafness and illnesses. This article reviews critically a recent report of the longitudinal distribution of Pb along individual hairs belonging to Beethoven by Dr Reiter 1, who interprets the Pb concentration profile of an individual hair in terms of several hypothetical occurrences which might have exposed Beethoven to lead during the last few months of his life and concludes that the resulting Pb poisoning caused his death. This hypothesis is, however, in need of substantiation by additional data since it is at variance with the known kinetics of Pb in blood and because the Pb content of hair is recognized as a problematical and unreliable biomarker of lead absorption, in part, because it is not possible to exclude exogenous Pb contamination in the specimen. In view of Beethoven's extraordinarily well-documented medical history and autopsy report, briefly summarized here, and in the absence of persuasive evidence that Beethoven suffered from lead disease, it is concluded that lead did not contribute significantly to his deafness, illnesses, or death.

[Peter]

Severe doubts have recently been cast on Reiter's flimsy hypothesis:

In view of Beethoven's extraordinarily well-documented medical history and autopsy report, briefly summarized here, and in the absence of persuasive evidence that Beethoven suffered from lead disease, it is concluded that lead did not contribute significantly to his deafness, illnesses, or death.

Thanks for that Cetto - I have never been satisfied with the lead poisoning theory simply on the grounds that why were not more people in Vienna also affected? Beethoven was not alone in drinking either wine or mineral water!

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Thanks for that Cetto - I have never been satisfied with the lead poisoning theory simply on the grounds that why were not more people in Vienna also affected? Beethoven was not alone in drinking either wine or mineral water!

You seem not to have read Reiter's article. He said nothing about wine or water, but claimed that the antiseptic lead paste applied on Beethoven's abdominal wound caused the lethal attack of liver cirrhosis.

[Peter]

You seem not to have read Reiter's article. He said nothing about wine or water, but claimed that the antiseptic lead paste applied on Beethoven's abdominal wound caused the lethal attack of liver cirrhosis.

No I haven't but I am talking about the popular theories circulating which have suggested wine or spa water. What I have read is "According to Reiter, Wawruch worsened Beethoven's already lead poisoned condition with lead poultices applied"

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

No I haven't but I am talking about the popular theories circulating which have suggested wine or spa water. What I have read is "According to Reiter, Wawruch worsened Beethoven's already lead poisoned condition with lead poultices applied"

Reiter presents not a speck of proof that lead poultices were ever applied to Beethoven's wound. He didn't even bother to supply a reference to a medical textbook from Beethoven's times. Furthermore Wawruch writes in his report that 'the wound was kept dry all the time'. Reiter's hypothesis must be called very shaky at best.

[Immortal Beloved]

Peter and the rest of the folks - I agree..It's tottaly ironic about the lead theory... I remember getting to read everything on Beethoven on my hands when I was 16 years old, and now 27.. just doesn't add up.

My music teacher found an article, and decided to print copies for us. I was the first one to grab it. Wasn't too happy, it was complete Gibberish! Saying he got it from a water! Oh plllleeeeeeaaase!

[TiberiaClaudia]

Article

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2906336.ece

This is an excellent article. Don't know if it's been posted before now, but anyway...
J.

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2906336.ece

This is an excellent article. Don't know if it's been posted before now, but anyway...
J.

This article is not excellent. It's just the same lead nonsense all over again with a few factual errors thrown in for good measure (B. returned by the end of November, Wawruch pierced B.'s abdomen etc). Let me repeat: it is not possible to exclude exogenous lead contamination in the specimen of Beethoven's hair.

[TiberiaClaudia]

In Defence of the Lead Theory

I hardly consider myself the scholarly type, so I'll get that out of the way right now. However, in my last college class the topic of lead poisoning came up causing us to get into Beethoven's death.

No, it is not possible to "prove" what Wawruch actually administered, but going by the practices of his day one can assume he at least administered lead based powder to LvB during his stint with pneumonia and I do believe that his already lead ridden system simply could not handle it. The proof of the lead content is in his hair and in the skull fragments. The hair gave records of varying lead content from over several days' time, and toward the end the lead levels really hopped. One can only assume these were days following some form of medical treatment. ASSUME. But the lead is there. From what I remember in school, "safe" lead content in hair is about 3 parts per million. LvB's hair never went below 60ppm at any given time during the testing on any given area of his hair strands. As far as skeletal remains--lead lodges in the bone tissue only after YEARS of exposure.

Judging Wawruch by the medical standards of our day is like locking the barn after the horse is out, it does absolutely no good. Wawruch was a product of his times, as were his treatments. The damage was done throughout Beethoven's life, not just in 1826/27. I, however, firmly believe that Beethoven died of lead intoxication, though not solely through Wawruch's doing. He began to complain of stomach upsets in his 20's, something that probably led him to seek treatment. Said treatments back then PROBABLY contained hazardous metallic substances such as Pb. LvB had a strong liking for sweetened wine, which WAS enhanced by a lead compound. China ware and pewter ware contained high lead values in that day.

I, too, wondered why more people in Vienna were not afflicted since LvB was not the only one who drank wine, saw the doctor, took spa baths, used pewter cups, etc...and I think, as has been postulated already, that LvB was a more isolated case because of all of the medical treatments he would have sought and received during his lifetime for the ailments that plagued him since he was in his 20's. I read that Beethoven was a heavy user of a type of bark that was an early form of asprin in large quantities. This, too, can cause severe liver damage. So perhaps it was not solely lead alone, but was lead in conjunction with something else. Also, there's the fame thing. If Beethoven were not Beethoven and still suffered medically as he did throughout his life...would we even know this man existed, let alone his symptoms? Of course not. The deaths due to the substance in common people are probably long forgotten.

Of course, a lot of this is assumption. But the hair and the bone contain what they do for a reason. The magic fairy doesn't just swoop down and insert lead in miscellanous individuals whilst they sleep on filthy straw mattresses. Bottom line for me based on what I've read: Medical treatments in combination with daily activities containing lead (that would otherwise not bother fairly healthy individuals) in combination of more medical treatments over a course of time are what did LvB in. Wawruch, perhaps, just put the final nail in the coffin.

J.