What if Mozart lived longer?

[makir35]

Would the fifth symphony have been written? I sometimes wonder...Mozart would been almost 50 while Beethoven -,38 when it was performed to the public.

[Peter]

This is one of those great realisations that if you change just one thing everything is altered. Who knows what would have happened? Beethoven almost certainly would have studied with Mozart and everything would have taken a different course right down to the people he met and circumstances of his life, let alone the music he composed!

[Keats]

Beethoven would have taken pity on him, for sure. He would have completely devastated Mozart in a keyboard duel, for sure. Beethoven's career is, musically speaking, far superior to that of Mozart.

[Preston]

Personally, I imagine it would have worked out similar to Beethoven and Haydn's relationship, when Haydn took Beethoven as pupil, only worse. Meaning that Beethoven would have been taken by Mozart as a pupil, and Beethoven would have eventually come to not like it... at all.

I imagine that Beethoven would have still written the same style of music that he wrote as we know it.

Also, I say "only worse" because I feel that Beethoven would have disagreed with Mozart more than Haydn.

[Peter]

Personally, I imagine it would have worked out similar to Beethoven and Haydn's relationship, when Haydn took Beethoven as pupil, only worse. Meaning that Beethoven would have been taken by Mozart as a pupil, and Beethoven would have eventually come to not like it... at all.

I imagine that Beethoven would have still written the same style of music that he wrote as we know it.

Also, I say "only worse" because I feel that Beethoven would have disagreed with Mozart more than Haydn.

Interesting Preston - yes I suppose it is highly probable Beethoven would have disagreed with many aspects of Mozart's life and personality. We know he disapproved of some of the operas because he considered the subjects too trite. However Beethoven always had great repect for Mozart's genius and certainly during his early Vienna years he regarded Mozart as the greatest composer (it was only later that he came to regard Handel as no.1). I think his respect for Mozart as a musician was probably greater than it was for Haydn so possibly he would have had a better relationship?

[Preston]

I think his respect for Mozart as a musician was probably greater than it was for Haydn so possibly he would have had a better relationship?

I agree, it is an interesting discussion, very much so. From what I have read and understand, I imagine that Beethoven respected Haydn more than Mozart. Even if Beethoven would have had a better relationship with Mozart, which I highly doubt, I imagine that it would have crumbled. It just isn't Beethoven, in my opinion. Beethoven and Mozart are just to different!

I highly agree with you that Beethoven would have disagreed with Mozart's personality. But I assure I am not knocking Mozart.

I am thinking of making a new thread about Beethoven's comments on Mozart's and De Ponte's opera's, haven't decided yet though.

Don't forget about Beethoven's love for Bach, he wrote music based on Bach, from what I understand.

I still feel that Beethoven was... Beethoven, and his music wouldn't have changed. I read in a post that you were listening to very very early Beethoven, and you pointed out that then people didn't understand his genius. So I imagine that his style would have remained the same, not just because his style when he was a youth, but his style in general. I mean the man just couldn't be stopped.

[DavidO]

To me, the most fascinating aspect of a Mozart that lived well into the 1800s would have been his (Mozart's) opinions about Beethoven's middle-period works. What would Mozart have made of them? Would he have been somewhat dismissive, like Weber or Spohr? Or would he have been astonished & impressed? Something about Mozart's inventive, playful personality makes me think the latter. If that were so, also imagine how Beethoven might have influenced Mozart! We might have had a bizarre Battle of the Symphonists from 1801 to 1812.

Would be great to have heard what Mozart thought of Beethoven's extraordinary use of the "Don Giovanni" aria in Variation 22 of the Diabelli, had Mozart lived that long (he'd have been getting pretty long in the tooth) -- or, goodness knows, any of the latter string quartets & piano sonatas.

[Peter]

I agree, it is an interesting discussion, very much so. From what I have read and understand, I imagine that Beethoven respected Haydn more than Mozart.

Remember these quotes "I have always reckoned myself among the greatest admirers of Mozart, and shall do so till the day of my death."

"He had always considered Mozart as such, but since he had been made acquainted with Handel he put him at the head." (Thayer).

He never lavished such high praise on Haydn. Also it was Mozart whom Beethoven had originally intended to study with. I agree Beethoven would still have produced great music, but it may have been different - certainly as DavidO points out the mutual influences would have been fascinating to observe.

[Preston]

Remember these quotes "I have always reckoned myself among the greatest admirers of Mozart, and shall do so till the day of my death."

"He had always considered Mozart as such, but since he had been made acquainted with Handel he put him at the head." (Thayer).

He never lavished such high praise on Haydn. Also it was Mozart whom Beethoven had originally intended to study with. I agree Beethoven would still have produced great music, but it may have been different - certainly as DavidO points out the mutual influences would have been fascinating to observe.

Interesting quotes, thank you. I am not saying for sure that Beethoven's music would have been the same, I feel there is possibility that it would have been different. Personally, I just don't see a mutual collaboration working out, I am not saying that it couldn't have though, there is possibility.

Yes, I would very much like to know what Mozart made of Beethoven's music.

[Chaszz]

Interesting quotes, thank you. I am not saying for sure that Beethoven's music would have been the same, I feel there is possibility that it would have been different. Personally, I just don't see a mutual collaboration working out, I am not saying that it couldn't have though, there is possibility.

Yes, I would very much like to know what Mozart made of Beethoven's music.

It seems to me that Beethoven's development would have been mostly unaffected -- sort of like a huge torrent of water which must run its overwhelming course no matter what -- but that Mozart's development might have been influenced by what Beethoven achieved. Mozart was obviously at a new plateau when he wrote the finale of the "Jupiter" Symphony, and there is no telling what would have come next. But I think his fertile and sponge-like talent would have been astonished and challenged by Beethoven's middle period, and he would have reacted to it in a significant way. Its even possible that the interplay of these two geniuses might have greatly changed the subsequent history of music. But as I say, I think that Mozart would have been the more affected one.

[Sorrano]

There is also to consider the influences that Mozart's later music might have had on other contemporary composers as well as future composers. Would Beethoven's influences on the future have been as great with what Mozart might have composed? I think they are interesting questions, but not ones that can ever be answered.

[Peter]

It seems to me that Beethoven's development would have been mostly unaffected -- sort of like a huge torrent of water which must run its overwhelming course no matter what -- but that Mozart's development might have been influenced by what Beethoven achieved. Mozart was obviously at a new plateau when he wrote the finale of the "Jupiter" Symphony, and there is no telling what would have come next. But I think his fertile and sponge-like talent would have been astonished and challenged by Beethoven's middle period, and he would have reacted to it in a significant way. Its even possible that the interplay of these two geniuses might have greatly changed the subsequent history of music. But as I say, I think that Mozart would have been the more affected one.

We have to remember that Beethoven's middle period itself did not spring out of nowhere, but was a product of many influences, primarily the French Heroic style borne of the Revolution. Composers such as Mehul, Spontini, Gretry and Viotti and most of all Cherubini had a direct effect on the development of Beethoven's middle period. Mozart dying at 35 in pre-Napoleonic times was never exposed to these elements so we can never know how he would have responded - if you kill off Wagner and Beethoven at 35 musical history would have been drastically changed, so why not Mozart? Schubert is another example of what may have been!

[gardibolt]

I'd agree that Mozart was showing signs of heading in new directions at the time of his death. He might very well have been susceptible to influence by Beethoven and gone into the Romantic style---with his fertile imagination, what marvelous pieces did we lose? And with Beethoven's example of how to be an independent artist, Mozart might have managed to live a comfortable life instead of his usual penury.

Schubert on the other hand seems to have written like a man who knew his days where numbered, and that he'd never see 40. I can't imagine him going on, period.

[Peter]

I'd agree that Mozart was showing signs of heading in new directions at the time of his death. He might very well have been susceptible to influence by Beethoven and gone into the Romantic style---with his fertile imagination, what marvelous pieces did we lose? And with Beethoven's example of how to be an independent artist, Mozart might have managed to live a comfortable life instead of his usual penury.

Schubert on the other hand seems to have written like a man who knew his days where numbered, and that he'd never see 40. I can't imagine him going on, period.

I'm not sure Gardibolt. Firstly Mozart was himself an independent artist before Beethoven (not forgetting that Beethoven wasn't truly independent himself). Mozart was not always at a loss for money, the debts are more a feature of the last years, but the success of the Magic Flute would have provided much needed financial support. As for the Romantic influence coming through Beethoven - well, it was coming through Field, Weber, Sphor and his own pupil Hummel -perhaps it is possibly in that direction he may have gone?

Of course when Schubert wrote Winterreise he probably did know his days were numbered!

[PDG]

I'm not sure Gardibolt. Firstly Mozart was himself an independent artist before Beethoven (not forgetting that Beethoven wasn't truly independent himself). Mozart was not always at a loss for money, the debts are more a feature of the last years, but the success of the Magic Flute would have provided much needed financial support. As for the Romantic influence coming through Beethoven - well, it was coming through Field, Weber, Sphor and his own pupil Hummel -perhaps it is possibly in that direction he may have gone?

Of course when Schubert wrote Winterreise he probably did know his days were numbered!

I think we must regard Beethoven as the first truly independent musician, as he went completely with his muse as the fancy took him, long before his Viennese friends set up his pension. Mozart always worked with the main aim of putting food on the family table (admirable nevertheless).