Was Beethoven a Manic Depressive?

[Maurice Colgan]

I recently came across a medical webpage where Beethoven was described as Bi-polar.

This subject may have been covered before so I hesitated to bring it up now.

Nonetheless new knowledge arrives on the subject of manic depression as more is learnt from those suffering it's extremes. I read a very interesting case not so long ago.

[Preston]

While some people disagree with Solomon, here are some things that he has to say about Beethoven's psychological state. He provides solid evidence and I believe it to be true. Thayer's book is supposedly more accurate. I don't know what it says, though. Keep in mind that what I am about to write was during a rough period for Beethoven, in his life.
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That Beethoven was a man of considerable eccentricity had been known to his contemporaries since Bonn days. After his appropriation of his nephew Karl, however, the that he was something more than an eccentric became common currency in Vienna. In 1816, for example, Charlotte Brunsvik wrote, "I learned yesterday that Beethoven had become crazy." The German composer Carl Friedrich Zelter wrote to Goethe in 1819, "Some say he is a lunatic." At that same time Ferdinand Ries, on receiving a startling last-minute request for a revision of the "Hammerklavier" Sonata, "began to wonder if my dear old teacher had really gone daft, a rumor which was going about at various times." During these years, Beethoven railed openly against the nobility, the courts, and the emperor himself, seemingly oblivious of the possible consequences in Metternich's police state. "He defies everything and is dissatisfied with everything and blasphemes against Austria and especially against Vienna," reported Karl Bursy, a medical doctor who visited him in 1816, and young Peter Joseph Simrock, the son of Nikolaus Simrock, heard Beethoven, still smarting from the devaluation of the Austrian currency, say of Kaiser Franz, "Such a rascal ought to be hanged." The police did not disturb Beethoven, in part because he was Beethoven and because he had several friends in imperial circles, but also because he was thought to be a little touched. When Rossini in 1822 implored the Austrian court aristocracy to mitigate Beethoven's financial distress, the universal reply was that there was no point in offering aid; they considered Beethoven not merely deaf, but a misanthrope, a recluse, and mentally unbalanced.

Beethoven was well aware of this reputation. In 1820 he warned his admirer Dr. Wilhelm Christian Muller "not to be misled by the Viennese, who regard [me] as crazy," and also told him, "If sincere, independent escapes me, as it often does, they think me mad."

Signs of neurotic disorder- sudden rages, uncontrolled emotional states, an increasing obsession with money, feelings of persecution, ungrounded suspicions- persisted until Beethoven's death, reinforcing Vienna's belief that its greatest composer was a sublime madman.
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Solomon goes on, talking about people talking about Beethoven, and about his physical appearance, etc.

The key thing to understand is... that you can suffer from severe psychological problems and be completely brilliant, as was the case with Vincent van Gogh. You can also have completely sane moments or thoughts, while appearing to suffer from problems from what I understand.

There is no doubt that Beethoven was a sublime genius, who was a very caring person, and who was unimaginably spiritual.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[DavidO]

I recently came across a medical webpage where Beethoven was described as Bi-polar.

This subject may have been covered before so I hesitated to bring it up now.

Nonetheless new knowledge arrives on the subject of manic depression as more is learnt from those suffering it's extremes. I read a very interesting case not so long ago.

I've read a lot about bipolar disorder, too, from Frederick Goodwin's work to Kaye Jamison's work ("An Unquiet Mind") to Ronald Fieve's work ("Moodswing") to biographies of diagnosed bipolar sufferers from Patty Duke to Randall Jarrell to Vivien Leigh to Winston Churchill & on & on.

Nothing I have ever read about Beethoven suggests to me (a non-psychiatrist) that he was bipolar. He had periods of depression, certainly, as well as what today's diagnostic gauges might consider various types of personality (not mood) disorders, but you just don't find a significant number of mania or hypomania symptoms manifesting themselves in Beethoven, according to the biographical record. You might find one or two here & there--bursts of compositional creativity in certain periods, for example. But I don't believe you find enough to warrant a serious diagnosis of bipolar disorder. See the Diagnostic & Statistical Manual criteria: http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/ps...gy/781/dsm.htm

Of course, there is a category of bipolar disorder known as Bipolar II, which requires (in addition to multiple or recurring periods of depression of clinical strength) only one episode of hypomania. I think it would be impossible for any biographer to say at this point whether Beethoven ever experienced a hypomanic episode. Even in the case of Beethoven's obvious sense of his own importance -- his grandiosity -- it's probably more reasonable to consider that an aspect of his personality on a permanent basis than as a temporary but recurring expression of a mood disorder. The same with Beethoven's distractibility -- probably an aspect of his personality & his cognitive makeup than a specific manifestation of an affective (mood) disorder.

But that's my amateur opinion -- Beethoven not bipolar.
(Apparently some other composers were, though, such as Schumann & Hugo Wolf. I just don't know enough about their lives.)

[Maurice Colgan]

Thank you Preston and DavidO.

My 70 year old mother after getting Diabetes succumbed to Manic Depression in her weakened state. It lasted 11 years. Maureen my wife and I looked after here as she fought to regain her sanity time and time again not knowing what it was that had sent her to mental hospitals time and time again.

A senior psychiatrist after listening to accounts of my mother's life told me my mother had been high all her life, but had kept the depression at arms length from strength of will. That conversation came after I refused to let the hospital perform electric shock treatment on my mother when she was in deep depression. I relented in the end and the treatment worked in the short term.

My 68 year old sister a mother of Seven children is now in hospital suffering from manic depression. She too had kept it at bay till weakened by ill health in later life.

I have all the tell tale signs but remain so far undiagnosed :-)

Gareth O' Callaghan an RTE1 radio show presenter here in Ireland, a novelist, and now expert on Manic Depression because he has suffered for decades with the disorder wrote quite an eye opening book about his experiences with psychiatrists. It's title, "A Day in Hope".

Well worth a read his intelligent approach and insight explains the chemical imbalance ALONG with the mind question!

( Coincidently I spoke on air with Gareth about Elvis back in 1997 on-air and won a trip to Memphis for two on his radio show)

Being a superactive type all my life with that incredible energy level I know I do have the manic symptoms. But I have never needed treatment. (Touch wood)

Perhaps Beethoven died before he was struck down with full blown mani-depression? Just a thought.

Spike Milligan and Joan Bakewell's mother are two others I have read about along with movie star Rod Steiger.

Listening to my mother over the 11 years of her manic depression and observing all the treatment and theories of medical staff who were part-timers in comparison on the case, was an education I'll never forget!

I told one psychiatrist I was the expert on my mother not him! Book learning is all well and good but................

When I read more of my Beethoven biographies I will certainly be on the lookout now.

[DavidO]

Thank you Preston and DavidO.

My 70 year old mother after getting Diabetes succumbed to Manic Depression in her weakened state. It lasted 11 years. Maureen my wife and I looked after here as she fought to regain her sanity time and time again not knowing what it was that had sent her to mental hospitals time and time again.

A senior psychiatrist after listening to accounts of my mother's life told me my mother had been high all her life, but had kept the depression at arms length from strength of will. That conversation came after I refused to let the hospital perform electric shock treatment on my mother when she was in deep depression. I relented in the end and the treatment worked in the short term.

My 68 year old sister a mother of Seven children is now in hospital suffering from manic depression. She too had kept it at bay till weakened by ill health in later life.

I'm so sorry to hear about your mom & sister. Very tragic. Many psychiatrists believe that affective disorders like bipolar disorder are heritable traits. The researchers often find bipolar disorder or unipolar disorder clustered among blood relatives.

Perhaps Beethoven died before he was struck down with full blown mani-depression? Just a thought.

Interesting possibility, but kind of unusual. I have heard that the majority of bipolar patients start showing serious signs of the illness in their late teens or early twenties.

Two things I try to remember about a mood disorder are that 1) the symptoms are recurrent, & 2) the symptoms are interspersed with periods of normal mood & functioning. That's primarily why I stated my belief earlier that Beethoven's grandiosity (a classic symptom of clinical mania) was an aspect of his personality rather than a manifestation of mood disorder -- in other words, it was a permanent condition in him rather than an anomaly of mood.

Other classic symptoms of mania seem not to have plagued Beethoven (including press of speech, wildly increased sexual activity & libido, reckless financial spending, & if the hypomania or mania reaches psychotic levels, hallucinations), which would complicate a bipolar disorder diagnosis, I would think. (The DSM requires at least five from that list posted earlier.) Indeed, Beethoven appears specifically not to have suffered from many of those symptoms.

I really wish you well in taking care of your illness -- it's a dreadful affliction.

We're way off topic here, but I want to recommend William Styron's very short memoir "Darkness Visible" (still in print), which deals with his unipolar disorder & a specific episode of clinical depression he suffered from as an adult. The book is very short -- you can read it in an hour or two -- & gives you a razor-sharp sense of the experience of a mood disorder.

It's probably available through Amazon.

[Maurice Colgan]

That's just it DavidO, I already have an insight to my "possible" future illness.

I'm not ill. Well not untill a "Professional" tells me I am :-)

Well no worse than the next guy :-) We are all victims of an inability to understand our own brain .... so far.

As for the onset of depression there are always the exceptional cases. Each case appears to be unique that's why the "Experts" are often at a loss to deal with it in a satisfactory manner.

I'll look out for the book you recommended, but I need to get to grips with my Beethoven books, to be back on topic too.

On Beethoven it seems the jury is out. Maybe more info will surface as people actually look for the clues? A case of, It takes one to know one? :-)

[Preston]

I am sorry to hear about your mother and your sister, Maurice. My grandmother suffered severely from Alzheimer's disease for about 6 years. She thought people were doing things to her, like abusing her, she would try to sneak out of the house and people would find her walking down the roads in the middle of the night, etc. It eventually came to the point where she couldn't walk or talk for four years. Terribly sad stuff, terribly.

I imagine that some psychiatrist are pretty wrong. And when I say wrong I mean idiots. It is the fact of finding a good psychiatrist... like finding a good service representative, just a lot more serious. Beethoven was always on the lookout for a good physical health doctor.

There are many different levels of bi-polar or schizophrenia disorder. From hearing and seeing things, to being unimaginably paranoid, to thinking people are out to get you, thinking people are out to hurt you, etc. There are also not as severe levels of disorder where you wouldn't realize the person standing next to you would have bi-polar. And levels in between.

[Maurice Colgan]

Exactly Preston. Thanks for your sympathetic post.

Imagine a twenty something psychiatrist explaining my mother to me when I had been observing her all my life! She ran circles around them :-) A great actress all her life.

Studying human behaviour is fascinating. Beethoven especially so, allbeit from books. And his marvellous music.

Was ever a movement more manic than the finale of the magnificent Seventh Symphony?

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