Beethoven in 1783

[makir35]

As i have it, his works are WoO 107, WoO 48 (on same manuscript as WoO 107), WoO 31, and WoO 47(published October 14th). Does anybody know when WoO 31 fits into all this, chronologically? This is an example of what I'm doing. Any who can provide informative links or such is greatly appreciated.
It was never published in Beethoven's lifetime; however, I am tempted to put it first of the four since it is organ music and he served as court organist since 1782 under Neefe.

[Peter]

I think in trying to be so specific you've set yourself an impossible task since as you know Beethoven often worked on different works simultaneously. I notice you don't include WoO49 - though published the following year both Thayer and Cooper suggest 1783 - just one example of the complexity of your task. Good luck and please keep us informed of your progress.

[melvyn]

First Works

For what it's worth, about 5 years ago I compiled this information for a set of CDs which I was making of all the works in chronological order. I don't wish to get into an argument about the accuracy of this list, as it was based on the best information available to me at the time, and I no longer have the information at my fingertips.

Where two works were completed in the same year, but without knowing exactly when, I would order the works according to the start date. In other words, a work started in 1800 and completed in 1805 would appear before a work started in 1804 and completed in 1805.

First work Cressener Funeral Cantata Hess314 (lost) (1781)

9 Dressler Variations for Piano Woo63 (1782)
Lieder “An Einen Saugling” Woo108 (1782)

Electoral Sonata No.1 Woo47 No.1 (1782-3)
Electoral Sonata No.2 Woo47 No.2 (1782-3)
Electoral Sonata No.3 Woo47 No.3 (1782-3)
Lieder “Schilderung Eines Madchens” Woo107 (1782-3)

Fugue in D Major for Organ Woo31 (1783)
Rondo in A Major Woo49 (1783)
Rondo in C Major Woo48 (1783)

I don't know why Woo49 and Woo48 are reversed, but I must have had good reason for listing them like that.

Melvyn.

[makir35]

Wow! Do you still have your list even though you no longer have all your sources available to you? The fact that these works are open to speculation keepsm it interesting in and of itself. For example, I had WoO 48 before WoO 49 from Barry Cooper's book. It'll be cool to post inquiries on this forum, did x come before y.

[melvyn]

Yes I still have my list - and the CDs!

I've got no idea why I put 49 before 48. I drew up a database of all the works and the dates and months of composition, where known, plus a date for the start of composition, and a weighting factor which would come into play when everything else was equal. On Woo49 I've put a comment, 'came before Woo48'. It may have been that I had evidence to suggest that Woo49 was started before Woo48, and in the absence of any information about the actual completion dates, that would have put Woo49 before 48 using my set of rules.

As has already been correctly stated, it's impossible for us to know the true chronological order of every work now. This was only intended for my own private CD project and I think anybody who wants to do something like this has to make up their own minds about how best to sort the works and then get on with it. If you want to debate the date of every work on this forum you'll never get anywhere! (Although you might turn up some interesting theories.) I think my system was a good one and I learnt a LOT about Beethoven's music and changing style from the resulting CDs.

I seem to remember that I was not the only one to do this. At the time, somebody else was compiling a similar list for putting the music onto an MP3 player!

Melvyn.

[makir35]

Yes I listened to B.'s music in semi-chronological order in the past, although I didn't like getting up and changing the CDs (and tracks) for some of the rondos and songs.
And yes, when I realize how profound even his early works are, it truly is exciting, knowing that I haven't even reached the Op. 13 yet! I remember when I got to the Op. 59 quartets I felt like a newborn baby!

[gardibolt]

I think the existence of the "Cressener funeral cantata" has been pretty well discredited now. IIRC Hess-Green sets out the details.

I have a similar list that I put together once; I'll have to put that online somewhere.

EDIT: I found the hard copy of the list but I can't seem to locate the electronic version. I'll see whether I can scan this---it's too long to retype. Bear with me.

[gardibolt]

OK, I've found and scanned my chronological listing; it included all the dating information that I had been able to find as of about the year 2002; it includes Cooper's Beethoven biography but not much since then. I did catch a couple of errors that were corrected in the Hess-Green catalogue (such as Adorata O Nice Hess 126 being the same thing as WoO 92a), but there probably are more. But I thought it may be useful to someone and I don't have time to go through and fix it properly. Since it was scanned, the formatting is kind of wonky and there are still some typos (though I tried to fix most of the obvious ones). Take it for what it's worth:

http://personalpages.tds.net/~mzimme...%20Listing.pdf

[Gurn Blanston]

Here is the complete Biamonti listing. It is the best I know, although it is sadly lacking in the most recent updates.

This is a Microsoft Word document, hope it can be of some help to any or all.

[Sorrano]

Here is the complete Biamonti listing. It is the best I know, although it is sadly lacking in the most recent updates.

This is a Microsoft Word document, hope it can be of some help to any or all.

Gurn, did you intend to attach a link to a document?

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn, did you intend to attach a link to a document?

Sorrano,
Very puzzling, the link was there last night when I posted it, I tested it to make sure it worked. And today? Gone!

Anyway, here it is again:

http://www.mediafire.com/?12urm4wmmyr

Oh well...

[Preston]

Gurn, thank you unbelievably for that. I remember in a post a while back you told me that you felt the Biamonti listing was the most complete. It definitely seems true from what I have looked at. Once again thanks, now I have the listing!

[Sorrano]

Thanks, Gurn!

[makir35]

This biamonti listing is the most complete listing as far as known works up to the 1950's. Also it is not quite chronological if you look at the dates of known composition. I used it to compile my own list, finding it at www.lvbeethoven.com, where they have midi files of a few works not on unheardbeethoven.org.
I used the Biamonti listing extensively, especially in making sure each work was listed (none accidentally left out). I had the Bia numbers in my list, so that to make sure all were there, I ordered the paragraphs alphabetically. So it was easy to see if I accidentally listed a work more than once (Bia x, Bia x) with different compositions, or left one out (Bia x-1, Bia x+1). Using this method I easily saw I missed 29 items when I thought I was done!
I also used the Gardi numbers on www.unheardbeethoven.org to add more works. Thanks Gardibolt. And thank you for posting your listing. It is similar to mine in format. It's a Wordpad document. Some specifics of the ordering may need to be changed though.
Here are the rules I will use:

1) Completed on a specific day
2) 1st performance date, private preferable
3) Published date if composition completed same year but dno't know the months (upper limit)
4) 2 works finished in same month, the one started earlier
5) if not known which of 2 started first, give benefit of doubt to Biamonti
6) unheardbeethoven and Barry Cooper can override Biamonti

In essence, each work is listed as late as possible in the list without using the published dates as some are at least 20 years wrong.
4)

[makir35]

For example of the fun this can be even if impossible to prove 100% with accuracy. When was Bia 219 , WoO 92, Scene and Aria in A Major, "Prima Amore" written? The year was 1791-1792 from Biamonti. From the informative booklet that came with me CD's of this, it was suggested it came before WoO 89 and WoO 90. Wo89 and WoO 90 were probably composed concurrently since they have the same Biamonti number 28. Also since the WoO numbers are less than 92 it adds credence. Gardi 2, a sketch for a duo for strings, is near WoO 90 in the sketchbook. The Ritterballet Bia 29 was performed on March 6th of 1791. Therefore if all this information is correct WoO 92 was written within a few months or weeks before 3/6/1791. Also I assume here Biamonti is correct in having the Ritterballet higher in Biamonti number than the Bia 28 arias.
It's fun to do all this with the other works too trust me.

Bia 22 WoO 111 Song in G Major, "Punschlied"
Bia 214 WoO 92 Scene and Aria in A Major, "Prima Amore"( likely before WoO 89 and WoO 90)
Bia 28 WoO 89 Aria in F Major
Bia 28 WoO 90 Aria in D major *woo 89 and woo 90 under same Bia. no.)
Gardi 2 sketch for duo for violin and cello in Eb (near WoO 90 in sketchbook)
Bia 29 WoO 1 RitterBallet (March 6)
Bia 30 Hess 89 Arrangment of WoO 1 for piano(after WoO 1 for sure)