Let's discuss the fifth symphony...

[makir35]

I just noticed that the famous 4 note motif which sets this masterpiece into motion in the first movement, in a varied way, also ends the entire work!
I've never noticed this before in my 12 years in my Beethoven hobby! Lets discuss this work.

[Peter]

Good idea - we could do with discussing some Beethoven round here!

Sketches for the 5th symphony appear as early as 1804 in the same book used for much of the Eroica and work on it was interupted for both the 4th and 6th symphonies. Interestingly in this sketch book Beethoven copied 29 bars of the finale Mozart's 40th symphony and there is a striking resemblance to the phrase structure of that theme (but not the character) and the opening of the scherzo from the 5th which therefore must be more than mere coincidence. Similar thematic relationships are also apparent with the opening of the slow movement of Mozart's Jupiter and the finale of the 5th.

[Michael]

The four-note rhythm that opens the symphony can be found scattered throughout Beethoven's works. It's in the "Appassionata", the Fourth Piano Concerto" - even in the very early four-hand sonata Opus 6 where it opens the whole piece.
Even the last four notes of the Ninth Symphony sound a little like the opening of the Fifth and at least one conductor (I can't remember who) has deliberately exaggerated this in one of his recordings.

[Maurice Colgan]

If I remember correctly the first vinyl lp of the Fifth I bought was black and had the four notes in red on the cover maybe a Music For Pleasure recording back in 1968?

Around that time the CO-OP store in Manchester was closing and Classical LPS were going four for a pound sterling! That increased our classical music collection very fast indeed:-) Our children inherited the collection and I had to start all over again!

We are still trying to catch up.. with CDs! Thank goodness we have Classic FM and Lyric FM.

There is quite a compilation of Beethoven's works on the CD that came with the John Suchet book.

[Michael]

If I remember correctly the first vinyl lp of the Fifth I bought was black and had the four notes in red on the cover maybe a Music For Pleasure recording back in 1968?

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I had that one, too, Maurice. It was Steinberg and the Pittsburgh S.O. I think Music for Pleasure started a lot of us off.

[Rutradelusasa]

It also features proeminently in other contemporary works, such as Méhul's First and Second Symphonies (I don't know the 3rd and 4th).
The 4th movement of his 1st has this the same kind of motif appearing on 99% of the piece (I guess the amount of bars that don't have it amount to less than 10).

[makir35]

Yes there is the four note motif in many of Beethoven's works, such as one of the movements of the Op. 3 String Trio. The neat thing is that they never have the same affect in any of his works. In the string trio there is no sense of fear or 'seriousness', in fact I find it rather it rather playful and beautiful.
What about the fate motif of the first movement? Does it represent fate?
I know our good friend Schindler has stated it does represent fate knock knock knock knocking at Beethoven's door, and, musically, there is strong evidence for this...

[Peter]

Yes there is the four note motif in many of Beethoven's works, such as one of the movements of the Op. 3 String Trio. The neat thing is that they never have the same affect in any of his works. In the string trio there is no sense of fear or 'seriousness', in fact I find it rather it rather playful and beautiful.
What about the fate motif of the first movement? Does it represent fate?
I know our good friend Schindler has stated it does represent fate knock knock knock knocking at Beethoven's door, and, musically, there is strong evidence for this...

According to the more reliable Czerny (who heard this account much closer to the actual composition of the 5th than Schindler recounting years later) Beethoven told him that the rhythm was suggested by the yellow-hammer's song and that Beethoven would frequently improvise on this rhythmic pattern. Of course Schindler's account is more akin to the dramatic nature of the music and to the public more striking than thinking of a little bird! I would have thought that the rhythm was more likely suggested by Mozart's C major piano concerto K.503.

What is striking is the trouble this opening phrase gave Beethoven - the initial sketches reveal a quite banal origin to the famous theme.

[makir35]

Yes I remember reading something about the yellow hammer song. But there is a first person pyschological process evolving in the fifth symphony, musically depicted.
Akin the first movement as finding out you have a terminal illness, then what would the remaining three movements depict? Some have suggested denial, then anger, and acceptance, or reaching another plane of consciousness. I always hear Beethoven crossing a rickety bridge and arriving at the gate of truth as the symphony moves from the 3rd movement to the 4th movement. In the fourth, we are immersed in this new awareness like a newborn...
Thank you Mr Beethoven.

[Preston]

In the movie, "Immortal Beloved", starring Gary Oldman, I feel that it gives a pretty interesting description of the first movement of Beethoven's Fifth. It is really fascinating. In the movie WAR is happening due to the French Revolution, and it is happening in Vienna. Anyways, the symphony starts and war, tragedy, and terror, begin. Here are some things that happen during the symphony: cannon balls begin to be fired, people running and hiding from the war, children being killed, a woman being raped, soldiers marching, houses being blown away to nothing, etc., many horrifying things.

I am not saying that is what Beethoven wrote about, precisely, but it is an interesting interpretation, I think.

[gprengel]

Similar thematic relationships are also apparent with the opening of the slow movement of Mozart's Jupiter and the finale of the 5th.

Whow Peter, I have never seen this, but you are right! The beginning of the Andante theme is almost identical with the mighty second theme (by the French horns) in the Finale!
What I also feel is the resemblence of the main theme of the finale and the Oboe theme in the C Major part in the Marcia funebre of the 3rd symphony:
identical in the first 7 notes: c e g fedc... I am sure that Beethoven got this finale theme while writing this part from the Eroica. Anybody agreeing?
Gerd

[makir35]

I've never noticed that the oboe theme resembles the opening theme of the 4th before, but you are right. To what extant he got his idea from this I don't know but honestly...The decision to choose C major as the key, sit at the piano and I bet you can tap the theme quickly. It's how this simple theme was developed to make us feel we are wallowing, in new happy world where truths are revealed blatantly, that is awesome. It is a picture of superhuman delight!!! How about how the fate motif being answered or "one upped" 9 times a few minutes in , before the reprisal of the 3rd movement music? The menacing 4 notes exposited in the first movement and now weak and Beethoven has an firm answer 9 times before being "set free" from fate.

[Michael]

The first seven notes of the third movement of Beethoven's Fifth are identical to that of the finale of Mozart's 40th, though the rhythm is totally different. Some people say it is coincidence that TWO sequences of notes from Mozart's last two symphonies found their way into B's 5th. Unlikely, because the Mozart themes can be found on the same page as Beethoven's sketches for the Fifth!

[Michael]

What I also feel is the resemblence of the main theme of the finale and the Oboe theme in the C Major part in the Marcia funebre of the 3rd symphony:
identical in the first 7 notes: c e g fedc... I am sure that Beethoven got this finale theme while writing this part from the Eroica. Anybody agreeing?
Gerd

I was reading an article recently which puts forward the view that practically everything in the Eroica stems from the theme of the final movement. There is no doubt that the variation tune was composed first because this was its fourth outing. It appeared first in the Prometheus ballet, then in a set of country dances and lastly in the "Eroica Variations" for piano.

[makir35]

I can see that, why didn't I notice that before. Even the 3rd movement 'minuet AND trio' can be derived from the Eroica theme! And the hero theme(s) in the 1st movement. This just make the Eroica symphony a coherent whole. But we could start a whole new thread on this work.