Did Beethoven actually studied in Vienna with Franz Joseph Haydn??

[joel fienen]

I have one comment though. My father is a professor of music at very well to do school in Minnesota. He teaches organ and he is a very good teacher and artist. My question to you guys is this. If Beethoven did study with Hydan than why didn't contiue his studies with him? Beethoven also lived his his own way he also did not like the rules that were layed down for him by the government of the times. He also did not want anything to do with the social classes. He did love Napelon for while yes, but when he started to take over Europe he despise him. He only wanted what was best for himself and for Austria. Beethoven orginally wrote the third symphony for Napoleon yes he did, but when he found out that Napoleon was taking over he changed it.

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[Peter]

Originally posted by joel fienen:
I have one comment though. My father is a professor of music at very well to do school in Minnesota. He teaches organ and he is a very good teacher and artist. My question to you guys is this. If Beethoven did study with Hydan than why didn't contiue his studies with him? Beethoven also lived his his own way he also did not like the rules that were layed down for him by the government of the times. He also did not want anything to do with the social classes. He did love Napelon for while yes, but when he started to take over Europe he despise him. He only wanted what was best for himself and for Austria. Beethoven orginally wrote the third symphony for Napoleon yes he did, but when he found out that Napoleon was taking over he changed it.

Whilst with Haydn he worked at around 300 elementary exercises in counterpoint - they reveal 'mistakes' that are corrected in Haydn's hand. Beethoven obviously found working at these simple exercises tedious and unrewarding. They made no impact on his compositions, which is why B refused to put 'pupil of Haydn' on the title page of works published at the time, despite Haydn's wishes. When Haydn left for his second tour of England in 1794, Beethoven took the opportunity to study with Albrechtsberger, with whom he continued counterpoint lessons but progressed more quickly onto fugue, canon and double fugue.
Basically I think there was a personality clash between Haydn and Beethoven.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Michael:
Re the Haydn exercises, Joy, go to the "Hess" section at "Unheard Beethoven" and it's number 233.

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 06-29-2001).]

Thanks, Michael, for the helpful directions to that sight. I found it without a glitch. Very interesting to listen to especially since I had not heard any of that before. I think it helped me to understand counterpoint a little bit better too. Thanks again.
Joy

[Peter]

Regarding the famous incident when Haydn was supposed to have advised B not to publish Op.1 no.3 - if this story related by Ries (who seems rather unreliable to me) is true, then Haydn would have been advising B after the event as the trios had already been published.

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'Man know thyself'

[joel fienen]

So beethoven did study with him after all. Now my question to you is this. What drove him away from studying with him? Was it because of personlity clash or was it because Haydn taking all of the credit for his music. I had heard one time that beethoven left Haydn on a very bad note. He was also jealous of his composing style. So who was his favorite teacher.

[Peter]

Originally posted by joel fienen:
So beethoven did study with him after all. Now my question to you is this. What drove him away from studying with him? Was it because of personlity clash or was it because Haydn taking all of the credit for his music. I had heard one time that beethoven left Haydn on a very bad note. He was also jealous of his composing style. So who was his favorite teacher.

Haydn most certainly did not take the credit for Beethoven's works - he had no need being a world famous composer at the height of his powers in demand all over Europe, whereas Beethoven was relatively unknown. That there was a personality clash is obvious - they were two very different people - the genial, polite, traditional Haydn aged in his 60's and the confident, outspoken, impatient and supremely gifted young Beethoven eager to make his mark. Both misunderstood each other. The teacher who Beethoven spoke most highly of was his early mentor from his Bonn days, C.G.Neefe.

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'Man know thyself'