Did Beethoven actually studied in Vienna with Franz Joseph Haydn??

[joel fienen]

I am puzzled on this question. I have heard several times that beethoven did not study with him. I have read that this is true. If someone could respnd to this question with an explaination afterwards. That would be greatly apprecitated.

bye
jfienen25

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[Immortal Beloved]

Originally posted by joel fienen:
I am puzzled on this question. I have heard several times that beethoven did not study with him. I have read that this is true. If someone could respnd to this question with an explaination afterwards. That would be greatly apprecitated.

bye
jfienen25

Beethoven studied with him for awhile but I don't know for how long. :[

[~Leslie]

Reminds me of that joke "why couldn't they find Beethoven's teacher?"

Cause he was Haydn.

Hiding most of the time that is, in his own career , even though Josef definately wanted the credit without the undue hassle. Naturally this torqued Beethoven off.

B was already a skilled composer by the time he reached Vienna "to recieve the spirit of Mozart through Haydn's hands", but he just wanted to be doubly sure of the musical nuts and bolts.
Finally, two benevolent incognito tutors named Schenck and Albrechtsberger stepped in and assisted to keep the peace.~

[This message has been edited by ~Leslie (edited 06-25-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by joel fienen:
I am puzzled on this question. I have heard several times that beethoven did not study with him. I have read that this is true. If someone could respnd to this question with an explaination afterwards. That would be greatly apprecitated.

bye
jfienen25

Beethoven's studies with Haydn began shortly after his arrival in Vienna in Nov 1792 and continued until Jan 1794 when Haydn left Vienna for his second tour of England.

Beethoven wasn't happy with Haydn as a teacher and secretly had lessons with Albrechtsberger and Schenk at the same time.

He later claimed that he had learnt nothing from Haydn - however he learnt directly from Haydn's music, rather than from Haydn's lessons.

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'Man know thyself'

[joel fienen]

So beethoven did study with him after all. I have a friend. Actually one of my dad's collegues told me one time that he did study with him but only for a short time and that he had visited him in Vienna on several occasions.

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[Peter]

Originally posted by joel fienen:
So beethoven did study with him after all. I have a friend. Actually one of my dad's collegues told me one time that he did study with him but only for a short time and that he had visited him in Vienna on several occasions.

Well this guy was basically right - Beethoven only studied with Haydn for just over a year and Beethoven had briefly visited Vienna once before in 1787, but on that occasion, it was to study with Mozart, not Haydn.

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'Man know thyself'

[Claudie MICAULT]

In RIES's memories of B. we can read that B. criticised a lot the "Seasons" of HAYDN...
Anyway he was student of HAYDN for a couple of years and respected him. In his notebooks it exist an entry for a "Chocolate for HAYDN"...

[Joy]

I read that Beethoven felt that Haydn was jealous of his talents and indifferent about his development as a musician. After only 6 months of studying with Haydn he started to study in secret with another teacher, Johann Schenk. He even went as far as having Beethoven recopy his suggestions in his own handwriting to disquise the fact that he was studying with another teacher. Schenk noticed some mistakes Beethoven was making in regard to his exercises and many errors made under Haydn's instructions. I guess another musician, Joseph Gelinek, uncovered the secret and when Beethoven and Gelinek quarreled, Gelinek told Haydn about Beethoven's covert studies. Could Haydn have purposely not corrected errors Beethoven was making!?!

[Michael]

At the Unheard Beethoven site, you can hear MIDI versions of the exercises Beethoven did for Haydn - with and without Haydn's corrections.

M.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
I read that Beethoven felt that Haydn was jealous of his talents and indifferent about his development as a musician.

This I don't accept - it simply wasn't the nature of Haydn to be so petty minded. It wasn't for nothing that Haydn was known as 'papa', it was because he was held in great affection by virtually all who came into contact with him. Haydn was incredibly modest, acknowledging Mozart's superiority over himself in the field of opera. I think Haydn was simply too preoccupied with his last great symphonies and arrangements for another London tour to be bothered with boring music exercises - he simply was the wrong man for the job. He did however help B a great deal by lending money, arranging contacts.

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'Man know thyself'

[Claudie MICAULT]

I agree with you Peter.... one can be a good artist and not a good teacher ! There are also some teachers who can go with a student to a certain level and not higher. HAYDN called B. "The great Mogul"... maybe B. was already to "modern" for Haydn. And naturally if one goes to another teacher complaining about his master, the new teacher will "of course" find some mistakes to please the student.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
This I don't accept - it simply wasn't the nature of Haydn to be so petty minded. It wasn't for nothing that Haydn was known as 'papa', it was because he was held in great affection by virtually all who came into contact with him. Haydn was incredibly modest, acknowledging Mozart's superiority over himself in the field of opera. I think Haydn was simply too preoccupied with his last great symphonies and arrangements for another London tour to be bothered with boring music exercises - he simply was the wrong man for the job. He did however help B a great deal by lending money, arranging contacts.

I tend to agree. I have read lots of books on the subject and from reading what I had about Haydn it all seems rather doubtful. You can't believe everything you read as we all know.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Michael:
At the Unheard Beethoven site, you can hear MIDI versions of the exercises Beethoven did for Haydn - with and without Haydn's corrections.

M.

Thanks, Michael, I will give it a listen.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
I agree with you Peter.... one can be a good artist and not a good teacher ! There are also some teachers who can go with a student to a certain level and not higher. HAYDN called B. "The great Mogul"... maybe B. was already to "modern" for Haydn. And naturally if one goes to another teacher complaining about his master, the new teacher will "of course" find some mistakes to please the student.

You're right about that, Claudie.

[Michael]

Originally posted by Joy:
Thanks, Michael, I will give it a listen.

Re the Haydn exercises, Joy, go to the "Hess" section at "Unheard Beethoven" and it's number 233.

Michael



[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 06-29-2001).]