John Tavener, can't quite forgive Beethoven

[PDG]

The key to this was his own self confidence in what he composed. Prior to the first hearings and performances we see through his sketchbooks the detailed labor in bringing the works to a completion. He put great care into the works and once done did not care to modify. Fidelio is an example of that reluctance; didn't he refer to Fidelio in terms of a child that had given him great pain (or something to that effect) after having to do some major modifications?

This was my point, Sorrano. Having invested so much time and effort into "getting it right", he was most reluctant thereafter to change it.

He called Fidelio his "crown to martyrdom".

[Quijote]

No, I don't think it would have made any difference had he been able to hear the late works. The reason he substituted the Great Fugue had nothing to do with being unable to hear it.

OK,PDG. So why did he make changes in the Eroica after the 'play through' when his hearing was not so bad? I'm not trying to catch you out, I honestly want to know !!

[PDG]

I don't know, Philip. I intend to listen to the midi-files at the site recommended by Peter (Unheard Beethoven), and form an opinion.

I'd imagine that with such a revolutionary work as the Eroica, things such as orchestral balance would have been a major factor made clearer through listening rather than hearing inwardly.

[Quijote]

Sorry, I may have misunderstood your point. He was able to 'hear' more or less correctly at the time of the Eroica but still took advantage of the play through to make modifications. And why not, as any composer would jump at that opportunity. And what were the modifications?

He didn't have that opportunity of being able to 'hear' the late quartets, even though he was present at rehearsals. My point is : even with an infallible inner ear, he made changes to the Eroica. Had he been able to hear the late quartets, would he have made modifications? I know its pure speculation.

[Peter]

I don't know, Philip. I intend to listen to the midi-files at the site recommended by Peter (Unheard Beethoven), and form an opinion.

I'd imagine that with such a revolutionary work as the Eroica, things such as orchestral balance would have been a major factor made clearer through listening rather than hearing inwardly.

I don't think the revolutionary aspect of the Eroica had much to do with the revisions (he did it with the other symphonies), but you're possibly right about the balance issue. However he had at least 4 private run throughs in the case of the Eroica and would have had to bear in mind the larger forces that would have been used for the public performance (Lobkowitz's orchestra was very small). Really this topic needs a new thread as we have diverged enormously from the original topic - not that we ever stuck much to that! So I will have to close this thread soon, not because of any controversy or problems, simply because it is getting too long and off topic.

[Michael]

I cannot immediately locate the exact quotation but I remember Beethoven made some remark to either a friend or one of his publishers, on the subject of revisions or corrections, and it was something like this:
"Who can presume to be so god-like as not here or there to improve something in his creations"? ...