John Tavener, can't quite forgive Beethoven

[Quijote]

I simply mean valid as art. If I look at say a Michelangelo or Cellini scuplture I can appreciate the skill, the vision and the sheer creative genius that produced something I could never aspire to in a million years. That moves me to the core and it is precisely because it does produce the emotional responses you refer to that I regard it as great art. Emin's bed produces the same response in me as stepping in something rather unpleasant, so I'm afraid she clearly doesn't work for me. I accept and respect the fact that you respond differently.

Sticking more to musical matters perhaps we are better dealing with my suggestion of dropping a grand piano off a cliff - is that not as thought provoking as Cage's 4'33? You say no one loves Beethoven more than you so I wonder are you more enlightened by 4'33 or by the 9th symphony? - which of these two works produces the greatest emotional and intellectual response? You'll probably answer both in different ways, well I'd like to know exactly what a work such as 4'33 does for you and why?

Valid as art? Duchamps answered that question 90 yeas ago. Yes, I consider Emin's oeuvre to be "valid as art". I have answered the 'Emin question' in more detail above, in response to Preston's more reasoned posting. I too would like to get off the topic of Emin and move to things musical. Such as Cage.

Now I have a lot of admiration for Cage, who in my opinion has done more for music than the likes of Taverner. Again, I'm a little baffled by your posting - are you asking me if Cage's work is "valid" as music? My answer is yes. But 4'33" is not a concert piece in the sense of LvB's Emperor concerto. 4'33" is first and foremost music-theatre, or "performance art" if you prefer, and so requires a different set of interpretative / critical tools. So when Joe / Josephine Bloggs says "That's not music!" they are doing so from an erroneous standpoint. 4'33" is indeed highly thought-provoking (what is music, is there such a thing as silence, why should concerts only be in concert halls, how do we perceive "time" in music, what is the significance of the title, if I put a frame around it does it become art etc etc etc).

Do not forget that Cage has also written other works that display more purely composoitional technique : Contruction in Metal (I and II) being a case in point, and a work that I particularly admire.

My responses to 4'33" and LvB's Ninth are of course very different. Why shouldn't they be, they are two vastly different works (their respective composer intentions, historically, conceptually, technically ...)? I do not use the same interpretative template when I listen to works from such historically disparate periods.

Now, as to your dropping a grand piano off a cliff? What is your point?

[Peter]

Valid as art? Duchamps answered that question 90 yeas ago. Yes, I consider Emin's oeuvre to be "valid as art". I have answered the 'Emin question' in more detail above, in response to Preston's more reasoned posting. I too would like to get off the topic of Emin and move to things musical. Such as Cage.

Now I have a lot of admiration for Cage, who in my opinion has done more for music than the likes of Taverner. Again, I'm a little baffled by your posting - are you asking me if Cage's work is "valid" as music? My answer is yes. But 4'33" is not a concert piece in the sense of LvB's Emperor concerto. 4'33" is first and foremost music-theatre, or "performance art" if you prefer, and so requires a different set of interpretative / critical tools. So when Joe / Josephine Bloggs says "That's not music!" they are doing so from an erroneous standpoint. 4'33" is indeed highly thought-provoking (what is music, is there such a thing as silence, why should concerts only be in concert halls, how do we perceive "time" in music, what is the significance of the title, if I put a frame around it does it become art etc etc etc).

Do not forget that Cage has also written other works that display more purely composoitional technique : Contruction in Metal (I and II) being a case in point, and a work that I particularly admire.

My responses to 4'33" and LvB's Ninth are of course very different. Why shouldn't they be, they are two vastly different works (their respective composer intentions, historically, conceptually, technically ...)? I do not use the same interpretative template when I listen to works from such historically disparate periods.

Now, as to your dropping a grand piano off a cliff? What is your point?

I agree the question "what is art"? has to be asked and of course it is open to all sorts of interpretations, but if we accept this philosophy can we distinguish between the various merits of different artists or works of art? Is it correct to say Michelangelo was a greater artist than Congo the chimp? It seems to me that Duchamp does not allow us to make such judgements. It seems a very levelling philosophy that claims all is of equal value, none greater or better than any other - yet you seem to contradict this yourself by claiming Cage has done more for music than the likes of Taverner.

Now concerning Cage's 4'33 I don't see that he is saying anything more thought provoking than Beethoven in the late quartets who does it quite frankly in a far more rewarding way. Silences are integral to his late music as is playing around with time. As to the title, is it any more thought provoking than Beethoven's 'Muss es sein? Es muss sein!' And these days most people don't listen to music in concert halls anyway regardless of Cage! I can't comment further on his music because I'm not familiar with it and this is admittedly a weakness in my argument. I agree with your remarks concerning Schoenberg who I can admire but not love.

My point about chucking a grand piano off a cliff is simply that if Cage had done it doubtless you would come up with plenty of intellectual explanations as to why it is of artistic value but if your Joe Bloggs had done the same it would be a scandalous act of vandalism!

[Quijote]

I agree the question "what is art"? has to be asked and of course it is open to all sorts of interpretations, but if we accept this philosophy can we distinguish between the various merits of different artists or works of art? Is it correct to say Michelangelo was a greater artist than Congo the chimp? It seems to me that Duchamp does not allow us to make such judgements. It seems a very levelling philosophy that claims all is of equal value, none greater or better than any other - yet you seem to contradict this yourself by claiming Cage has done more for music than the likes of Taverner.

Now concerning Cage's 4'33 I don't see that he is saying anything more thought provoking than Beethoven in the late quartets who does it quite frankly in a far more rewarding way. Silences are integral to his late music as is playing around with time. As to the title, is it any more thought provoking than Beethoven's 'Muss es sein? Es muss sein!' And these days most people don't listen to music in concert halls anyway regardless of Cage! I can't comment further on his music because I'm not familiar with it and this is admittedly a weakness in my argument. I agree with your remarks concerning Schoenberg who I can admire but not love.

My point about chucking a grand piano off a cliff is simply that if Cage had done it doubtless you would come up with plenty of intellectual explanations as to why it is of artistic value but if your Joe Bloggs had done the same it would be a scandalous act of vandalism!

Some points for Peter (dig that alliteration!) :

If you read - carefully - my previous postings you will see that I never said all art is of equal value.

Asking questions about what is art is not "a philosophy" in any systematic sense whatsoever.

I was not making any value judgements about Cage's music compared to Tavener's qua music; if you read - carefully - my posting you will (hopefully) see that I meant that Cage has done more for music in a conceptual sense, and has had far more influence on later generations of composers.

I never said that 4'33" was more thought-provoking than LvB's Ninth. Certainly, the Ninth is thought-provoking in other (complex) ways. As I tried to explain to you before, I don't apply the same critical/interpretative template to composers from such disparate historical periods.

Michelangelo a greater artist than Congo the chimp? I would certainly hope so. I know the story quite well; some art lovers and critics were completely taken in by the chimp's 'work'. More fool them.

Your last comment regarding throwing your grand piano off a cliff : do I detect a whiff of anti-intellectualism? By the way, I am neither an art specialist nor an intellectual. But I certainly have a brain and an open inquiring mind.

To continue the piano throwing argument : in a way it has something to do with "context" and "intention" - I certainly wouldn't call the act 'music', but 'theatre' or 'performance art'. Throwing a piano off a cliff is not quite the same thing as playing the said instrument. Each 'act' (playing or throwing) normally involves different critical responses. So, if Joe Bloggs did choose to throw a piano off a cliff, we would need to ask 'why'. Is Mr Bloggs trying to make some sort of socio-politico-musico-artistc statement? What is the nature of the statement? Would it be interesting for the audience? In my view this sort of thing has been done and such 'performance art' is really rather passé these days. A lot of it happened in the 60s and 70s it seems, but we've got the message now.

Actually, to show you I can have a critical attitude, I once attended a performance of Cage's "Europera" here in Strasbourg a few years ago. The performers included 4 or 5 solo operatic singers, four players operating LPs on old Vitrola turntables, plus a magnetic tape providing a sonic 'backdrop'. The piece lasted 45 minutes and I confess I got a little annoyed at Cage because the "message" could have been gotten across in about 15 minutes. Here Cage was being much too long-winded.

Check out Construction in Metal. It is worth it.

I would like to move off the Emin question now, and focus on Beethoven in particular and music in general. Thanks.

[Peter]

Michelangelo a greater artist than Congo the chimp? I would certainly hope so. I know the story quite well; some art lovers and critics were completely taken in by the chimp's 'work'. More fool them.

Personally I see little difference between that and for example a light bulb going on and off, a dead sheep or Emin's bed, but I agree we need to move on from that. It shows that it is possible to present any complex intellectual argument to justify such work and occasionally make a complete fool of yourself as well as waste obscene amounts of money.

The problem for me with a great deal of modern music and art is it attempts to provoke on an intellectual level, but it fails utterly to inspire on a deeper emotional, subconscious, spiritual level if you like. It is one thing for you to say we must approach contemporary music from a different angle - fair enough, but forgetting all your complex thought provoking responses can you honestly say you get as much pleasure from it as say a Beethoven symphony? Does it profoundly move you as I think all great art should?

[Tod]

...For instance, I feel you can't love Metallica, AC/DC, etc., and then say that you love Beethoven. Because they are the opposite. It is similar in the way of saying I love Beethoven and Emin. It just doesn't make sense, at least that is what I think. I am not saying that I am entirely correct, though...

I'm putting my hand up for loving the music of Metallica, AC/DC, and Beethoven. I also love the music of Bach, Mozart, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, Eminem, Dr.Dre and Midnight Oil to name a few. Though I have tried, I can't understand the work of John Cage as anything other than performance art.

I think it healthy to enjoy many styles of music. It gives you a point of reference, enables you to understand more varied points of view and gives you a broader vision of what music really is. I can't understand people who only like one type of music, even limiting it to one or two artists. One of my bosses at work seems to think anything written after the Beatles and Elvis is boring, passe and merely copying the great initiatives of them. How narrow minded can you be. But that's what he thinks, and that's fine for him.

[PDG]

I also love the music of....Eminem....

Sorry, Tod, but we've all decided that we won't be discussing Eminem's unmade bed anymore.

[Preston]

I'm putting my hand up for loving the music of Metallica, AC/DC, and Beethoven. I also love the music of Bach, Mozart, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, Eminem, Dr.Dre and Midnight Oil to name a few. Though I have tried, I can't understand the work of John Cage as anything other than performance art.

Beethoven stood for all that was good in mankind. Beethoven surely did not worship the devil, like a lot of those Heavy Metal bands. He worshiped the higher power... the Great Divine.

People like Metallica and Eminem do absolutely no good for the state of mankind. They just make it worse. Humanity is in a bad state due to people like them, I think.

There is no possible way that you have a true sense of Beethoven's, Bach's, Handel's, etc., music if you are listening to the bands you named. As the lyrics of the "Ode to Joy" state, "touched with fire, we come, to thy radiant shrine". The music you named is certainly touched with fire my man. At least that is how I see it, maybe I am wrong.

Different folks, different strokes, I guess.

[PDG]

Now, as to your dropping a grand piano off a cliff? What is your point?

Dropping a grand piano off a cliff with Cage sunbathing on the beach below?

[Tod]

Beethoven stood for all that was good in mankind. Beethoven surely did not worship the devil, like a lot of those Heavy Metal bands. He worshiped the higher power... the Great Divine.

People like Metallica and Eminem do absolutely no good for the state of mankind. They just make it worse. Humanity is in a bad state due to people like them, I think.

There is no possible way that you have a true sense of Beethoven's, Bach's, Handel's, etc., music if you are listening to the bands you named. As the lyrics of the "Ode to Joy" state, "touched with fire, we come, to thy radiant shrine". The music you named is certainly touched with fire my man. At least that is how I see it, maybe I am wrong.

Different folks, different strokes, I guess.

Oh dear Preston, please don't go around assuming what people do and don't know about music. I studied classical piano for 10 years, spent 3 years at the Sydney Conservatorium of Music, played in my local Symphony Orchestra and played a number of concerts at the Sydney Opera House in various ensembles. Please don't tell me I know nothing of the true sense about Bach, Beethoven et al.

None of the bands I mentioned in my post are known to worship the devil as you claim. I think perhaps you are the un-enlightened one here and the more you write, the more it shows just how insular and uneducated you are.

If I may make an analogy using food, your view would be like stating that Roast Potatoes are the food of the Gods', the only food worth eating. Now whiles roast potatoes are indeed very tasty and in my top 5 of all foods, I also very much enjoy Broccoli, carrots etc. Variety is indeed the spice of life.

I could also argue that modern bands such as Metallica and Dr. Dre add perspective and help me to value and enjoy the mastery Beethoven even more. I can appreciate and even enjoy most types of music, in the right situations, in small doses, yes even Doof-Doof music is enjoyable after the 4th beer in a nightclub or bar.

I am nowhere near as religious as your good self appears to be. I don't enjoy music for its apparent divinity, I just enjoy it because it speaks to me and connects with my soul in a way that makes me want to hear it and play it for myself.

I admire others who can appreciate many forms of music, still have their favourites, but not trash others that they don't understand. That is where I think Tavener has gone wrong in the article which caused this topic. Sure if you don't understand something feel free to say so, but don't trash it and dismiss others work as rubbish, futile or childish. Just appreciate it for what it is and leave it at that.

[Preston]

I am nowhere near as religious as your good self appears to be. I don't enjoy music for its apparent divinity, I just enjoy it because it speaks to me and connects with my soul in a way that makes me want to hear it and play it for myself.

I am not saying that I am religious or that I am all that good, I am pretty good though and I know that I am a lot better of a person that a Rap star. For instance, Rap just doesn't make sense to me. They rap about the most vile and sick things. Anyway, I do not want to offend you and let's get off the subject. As I said, different folks, different strokes.

[PDG]

Now whiles roast potatoes are indeed very tasty and in my top 5 of all foods, I also very much enjoy Broccoli, carrots etc.

Don't forget Yorkshire pudding.

[Tod]

I am not saying that I am religious or that I am all that good, I am pretty good though and I know that I am a lot better of a person that a Rap star. ...

and modest too...

For instance, Rap just doesn't make sense to me. They rap about the most vile and sick things. Anyway, I do not want to offend you and let's get off the subject. As I said, different folks, different strokes.

Sure some rap is as you described but certainly not all. Some of it is quite clever, but as you wish, we'll leave it be for now. I totally agree with you about the "different folks, different strokes" attitude.

Don't forget Yorkshire pudding.

Sure why not, and roast pumpkin too while were are at it.

[Peter]

Oh dear Preston, please don't go around assuming what people do and don't know about music. I think perhaps you are the un-enlightened one here and the more you write, the more it shows just how insular and uneducated you are.

It seems to me that Preston responds to the greatness and spirituality in Beethoven's art and to my mind is sensibly repelled by the obscenity and vulgarity of much popular music. I mean just look at a sample of lyrics by Eminem

http://www.mattsmusicpage.com/eminem/lwithoutme.htm

[PDG]

Sure why not, and roast pumpkin too while were are at it.

Pumpkin? Well, it is nearly Halloween...

[Quijote]

To return for a moment to Preston's, PDG's, Megan's and Peter's 'higher truths' : the problem with such 19th century idealism of course resides in their perception of music as being autonomous of the world around it, that music (and in their case the music of LvB in particular) provides direct unmediated access to what they would term absolute values of truth and beauty.
The problem is that, in the words of Lawrence Kramer, "there are no such things as absolute values" as all values are necessarily socially constructed; furthermore, he goes on to write, "there can be no such thing as unmediated access as our concepts, beliefs and prior experiences are implicated in all our perceptions".

Time for you (PDG et al.) to give us a take on your 'higher truths'. I have put my head on the block to explain why I admire Emin (and Cage), and now it really is your turn to explain in detail your position.