John Tavener, can't quite forgive Beethoven

[Megan]

Reading a recent article about John Tavener, he quotes '' There are no decent Composers since Bach''
Beethoven , he now accepts , is sublime, even though he still cannot quite forgive him for introducing personal suffering into art, which he beleives, led ultimately to Tracey Emin - famous for her Messy Bed exhibit.

Mad Tracey from Margate" (her words) was shortlisted for the Turner Prize for an installation entitled My Bed, a testimony to her self-neglect and over-indulgence. She didn't win, but Charles Saatchi paid £150,000 for it.
She produces autobiographical art -- art which is about herself.


I don't quite understand Tavener's parallel here.
Beethoven , as we know, was one of the greatest genius's the world has ever produced and has immesurably added to mankind's sense of beauty and wonder.
Miss Emin's claim to fame seems to be producing unkempt beds, which is a pretty strange concept of art, and certainly does not ennoble or enrich our human experiences.
'

[Peter]

Is he unaware of the Italian madrigals of the renaissance with their reflections on death and what Beethoven works does he consider introduce 'personal suffering'? In anycase to suggest that this leads inevitably to the dreadful 'art' of Emin is absurd - that is a product of our sick society not the work of Beethoven which exemplifies all that is best in human achievement.

[Megan]

Is he unaware of the Italian madrigals of the renaissance with their reflections on death and what Beethoven works does he consider introduce 'personal suffering'? In anycase to suggest that this leads inevitably to the dreadful 'art' of Emin is absurd - that is a product of our sick society not the work of Beethoven which exemplifies all that is best in human achievement.

Absolutely Peter,

This woman may have suffered , but does not appear at the present time to be able to have the ability to turn this into any kind of worthwile art. In fact I regard her as a very disturbed individual.
Beethoven, on the other hand, suffered many things, but was blessed with the one of the greatest musical gifts of all time.

.

[PDG]

Reading a recent article about John Tavener, he quotes '' There are no decent Composers since Bach''
Beethoven , he now accepts , is sublime, even though he still cannot quite forgive him for introducing personal suffering into art, which he beleives, led ultimately to Tracey Emin - famous for her Messy Bed exhibit.

I think that when Tracy Emin is uttered in the same sentence as Beethoven, it really is time to pack our bags and head off to the asylum.

[Michael]

Tavener is a strange individual, rather inclined to overdo the mystical bit, and he never had a good word to say about Beethoven. However, the fact that he now accepts Beethoven as "sublime" is a real about-face. Maybe he has come to realise what constitutes genuine mysticism.

[Preston]

In anycase to suggest that this leads inevitably to the dreadful 'art' of Emin is absurd - that is a product of our sick society not the work of Beethoven which exemplifies all that is best in human achievement.

I do not no much about Emin, and quite frankly, don't want to, after what I have read. After what I have read, to compare Beethoven with Emin... is sickening, disgusting, childish, etc.

Yes I agree that Emin is a product of a sick society and I love the way you quote about Beethoven- "which explemifies all that is best in human achievement".

[Quijote]

Megan posted : "Reading a recent article about John Tavener, he quotes '' There are no decent Composers since Bach''
Beethoven , he now accepts , is sublime, even though he still cannot quite forgive him for introducing personal suffering into art, which he beleives, led ultimately to Tracey Emin - famous for her Messy Bed exhibit.

Mad Tracey from Margate" (her words) was shortlisted for the Turner Prize for an installation entitled My Bed, a testimony to her self-neglect and over-indulgence. She didn't win, but Charles Saatchi paid £150,000 for it.
She produces autobiographical art -- art which is about herself.


I don't quite understand Tavener's parallel here.
Beethoven , as we know, was one of the greatest genius's the world has ever produced and has immesurably added to mankind's sense of beauty and wonder.
Miss Emin's claim to fame seems to be producing unkempt beds, which is a pretty strange concept of art, and certainly does not ennoble or enrich our human experiences."

End of Megan's quote.


I'm sorry Megan, I cannot agree with your position. Your posting that Emin's oeuvre does not ennoble or enrich our human experiences is based on assumptions that are not necessarily shared by all of us.

As to the aesthetics of beauty and wonder, the complexity of such issues render simplistic assessments (re Emin, Tavener, Beethoven et al ...) grossly inadequate.

[Quijote]

To continue my posting above, I am also somewhat disappointed by comments by Peter, PDG, Preston et al. Personal opinion is one thing, but unsubstantiated and sweeping value judgements are exactly what listeners to LvB's music made in his time (and I am not suggesting any parallel to be made bewteen Emin, Beethoven or Tavener). Your blanket assumptions that one shares such reactionary positions is slightly insulting.

[Peter]

To continue my posting above, I am also somewhat disappointed by comments by Peter, PDG, Preston et al. Personal opinion is one thing, but unsubstantiated and sweeping value judgements are exactly what listeners to LvB's music made in his time (and I am not suggesting any parallel to be made bewteen Emin, Beethoven or Tavener). Your blanket assumptions that one shares such reactionary positions is slightly insulting.

Philip, I don't think anyone was making 'blanket assumptions' - we were expressing our own opinions. If Taverner suggests Beethoven naturally leads to Emin I think we are entitled to question what to my mind is an absurd conclusion, unless Taverner is referring to the state of Beethoven's lodgings which far outstripped Emin's unmade bed in both mess and originality. However I doubt Emin drew her 'inspiration' from such illustrious sources. This adds a whole new dimension to our composer who produced these unrecognised 'art masterpieces' way ahead of their time!

What is insulting is that such tosh is passed off as art along with the patronising assumption by art critics and intellectuals that the rest of us are just too plain stupid to get it - I realise that today it is fashionable to ascribe as much validity to the soiled nappy as Da Vinci's Last supper, but it is not a position I subscribe to - you are of course entitled to think that reactionary, but I think it sane.

[Quijote]

No, Peter, what is slightly insulting is the typical 'Daily Mail' reaction to such issues as "Is Emin's oeuvre really art or not"? I never said you were stupid, by the way. What I object to is sweeping value judgement (as many made to LvB's late quartets during the early part of the 19thy century - not that I wish to draw any parallels between Emin and LvB, of course).
You are confusing bourgeois (I use the term aesthetically) concepts of beauty with an art form (Emin's) that pays no credence to such positions. Your argument is also full of semantic pitfalls ("art", "validity", "sane" etc.) that lead me to reiterate my original response to Megan's posting : that the complexity of such issues render such simplistic assessments grossly inadequate.
Now, I understand of course that this forum is not a serious academic musicological journal, but I did choose to register here for reasoned debate, and do not appreciate hysteria, and I am beginning to detect a "hands-off Beethoven" flavour. I am a great admirer of Beethoven's music, but consider him open to critical analysis as any other artist (yes, including Emin).
The tone of your response makes me think that you may well hold similar opinions of music by composers such as John Cage, Brian Ferneyhough et al. Would that be the case? And are you prepared to go beyond simple utterances to engaged debate? Do let me know.

[Peter]

No, Peter, what is slightly insulting is the typical 'Daily Mail' reaction to such issues as "Is Emin's oeuvre really art or not"? I never said you were stupid, by the way. What I object to is sweeping value judgement (as many made to LvB's late quartets during the early part of the 19thy century - not that I wish to draw any parallels between Emin and LvB, of course).
You are confusing bourgeois (I use the term aesthetically) concepts of beauty with an art form (Emin's) that pays no credence to such positions. Your argument is also full of semantic pitfalls ("art", "validity", "sane" etc.) that lead me to reiterate my original response to Megan's posting : that the complexity of such issues render such simplistic assessments grossly inadequate.
Now, I understand of course that this forum is not a serious academic musicological journal, but I did choose to register here for reasoned debate, and do not appreciate hysteria, and I am beginning to detect a "hands-off Beethoven" flavour. I am a great admirer of Beethoven's music, but consider him open to critical analysis as any other artist (yes, including Emin).
The tone of your response makes me think that you may well hold similar opinions of music by composers such as John Cage, Brian Ferneyhough et al. Would that be the case? And are you prepared to go beyond simple utterances to engaged debate? Do let me know.

I agree entirely that Beethoven is open to critical analysis and do not hold to the view that every note he wrote is sacred - so I welcome with an open mind any opinions on the works of Beethoven and hopefully you'll stick around long enough for us to debate these matters intelligently.

The responses in this thread were intitially in connection with remarks made by Taverner in which he blames Beethoven for introducing personal suffering into music - a notion I entirely disagree with and wonder what your views on this are? This is a far more interesting topic than discussing our respective views of the merits of Emin which is way off this forum's purpose and really holds little interest for me.

[Quijote]

Intelligent debate - always welcome. As for the original posting (let us exclude the other comments regarding 'beauty' and 'wonder' and 'what is art' etc) concerning Tavener : of course his view is highly questionable (as if there is some sort of linear parallel between 'developments' in the visual and other art forms). I competely disagree with Tavener in this respect.

I hope then, Peter, that this forum serves as a platform for some lively debate that goes beyond comments such as "Beethoven's 4th piano concerto makes me think of clouds". Of course, I mean absolutely no criticism of that sort of subjective response to LvB's music - if you see a cloud who am I to say otherwise? More interesting, however, would be to look at why many commentators say simlilar things (i.e. the 4th piano concerto evoking such pastoral imagery, or the Eroica evoking heroes, battles and so on). Going a little more into detail, early classical pastoral music was traditionally in the key of G major (strange then that B's 6th symphony is in F). Is there a reason for this? Instrumental? Cultural/psychological? Other aspects?

This is the sort of debate I'm looking for. By the way, B's 4th piano concerto also evokes pastoral imagery in my mind (the 1st movement at least). Where does that come from? Whereas for the second movement I am only able to hear it in its formal organisational aspect (as an extended treatment of diminished seventh chords, and not for the reported 'Orpheus' programmatic element).

Perhaps this should be under another thread.

[Peter]

Intelligent debate - always welcome. As for the original posting (let us exclude the other comments regarding 'beauty' and 'wonder' and 'what is art' etc) concerning Tavener : of course his view is highly questionable (as if there is some sort of linear parallel between 'developments' in the visual and other art forms). I competely disagree with Tavener in this respect.

Yes but how about in respect of his notion that Beethoven introduces personal suffering into music for the first time? To me this is nonsense as the slightest contact with the music of Gesualdo and the other Italian madrigalists would surely demonstrate?

As to your other subjective points, yes another thread would be most welcome.

[Preston]

To continue my posting above, I am also somewhat disappointed by comments by Peter, PDG, Preston et al. Personal opinion is one thing, but unsubstantiated and sweeping value judgements are exactly what listeners to LvB's music made in his time (and I am not suggesting any parallel to be made bewteen Emin, Beethoven or Tavener). Your blanket assumptions that one shares such reactionary positions is slightly insulting.

I was posting what I felt about Emin and her art, from what I have seen and understand, which isn't all that much. But... I think I have read and seen enough, to know that it is not good art and is basically crap, in a sense.

As far as Tavener, well I am not knocking Tavener. I don't know how he figures Beethoven belongs next to Emin, it doesn't make sense to me. But I am most certainly not knocking him. From what I have read he sounds like a very spiritual and good hearted person, but I haven't read much.

I like what Peter said, "which explemifies all that is best in human achievement". Emin surely does not do this, to me, or at least I don't see this in Emin's art. Beethoven to me, far exceeds Emin, in every way possible.

Best Regards,
Preston

[Megan]

How on earth would one criticize an unkempt bed. I mean what would be the standard , a kempt or a made bed.
All art has to do with ideal forms, that is an ideal spiritual form of beauty , truth and even perfection. In this world we cannot have true knowledge, except through , ie. music which intimates to us the secrets of another world. The real problem with stuff like Emin, is that it is so utterly of this world that it can only be mired in the transient, and at the furthest remove from everything which points us to the spiritual, the pure, the true, and the beautiful. This is why, ie. we love say, the late Beethoven string quartets, an interior by Vermeer, a Holbein portrait, or a Shakespeare Sonnet.
These works are so completely oriented to spiritual and higher realities that we revealingly say that in contemplating them, we are uplifted and taken out of ourselves.
An unmade bed only points to the thing it signifies, ie. the body that was lying in it and left it in that condition. For anyone to say that is art in any comprehensible meaning of that word , is surely to take complete leave of ones senses. I do not wish to have a go at modern art, but the obsession with Damien Hirst for instance, tells us far more about the society in which we live, than about the extremely odd things he produces. By the way, I have a strong suspicion that the horrible skull with diamonds that was produced for some phenomenal sum, was actually taken from a skeleton.
There was a modern artist recently investigated by the police for this.
'