John Tavener, can't quite forgive Beethoven

[Sorrano]

Sorrano : Megan referred to "higher realities" and others (Peter, PDG et al) referred to "higher truths". Is that common ground enough for you? And what do both mean? I wait patiently with a VERY open mind.

You introduced the phrase "higher truths" to this thread. What did YOU mean by that?

[Peter]

You really are being obtuse, aren't you, Peter. You should read what I post more attentively. 19th century aesthetics is not about relative value judgements, but an extension of Platonic ideals as to so-called higher (or absolute) truths - which as we have seen are merely social constructs and do not exist in any 'autonomous' sense.

As I have repeatedly tried to tell you, there is absolutely no point in trying to compare art works by, say, Emin and Beethoven, as it is equally futile to compare Jingle Bells with the late quartets. Though in actual fact I challenge you to tell me what is the ontological difference between the Ode to Joy theme and the Jingle Bells theme. And I mean just the themes.

As to the value 'inherent' in a Clementi symphony and LvB's Ninth. When did I say that one was better (or inferior) to the other? Is there a 'golden mean' to be applied here? A universal template?

I have the impression that you seem to be engaged in some sort of inner dialogue when you reply to my postings, as if you are responding to your own questions instead of the issues I try to raise. Anybody can respond to music (I like this, I don't like that, I think 'X' is better than 'Y'); what I would expect of an intelligent forum would be something (just) a little deeper. Will you indulge me?

To quote you "How dare you - equally - tell me how I should respond to Emin's 'Bed'" - then stop abusing others here for stating their opinions - to me her work is crap. You're the one being obtuse in expecting members of a Beethoven forum to admire her work - post on an Emin forum (if one exists) and see how many admire Beethoven. You kick started this whole ridiculous saga by side-stepping the main subject of this thread which I have tried to deal with. For someone who claims to love Beethoven you've spent your whole time here discussing anything but Beethoven.

[Quijote]

To quote you "How dare you - equally - tell me how I should respond to Emin's 'Bed'" - then stop abusing others here for stating their opinions - to me her work is crap. You're the one being obtuse in expecting members of a Beethoven forum to admire her work - post on an Emin forum (if one exists) and see how many admire Beethoven. You kick started this whole ridiculous saga by side-stepping the main subject of this thread which I have tried to deal with. For someone who claims to love Beethoven you've spent your whole time here discussing anything but Beethoven.

I am not abusing anyone for stating their opinions - my only reproach is the manner (dismissive). Yes, I've also had enough of the Emin / higher truths debate (it never was one, to be honest, was it?). I'll stick to Beethoven in future.

[Tod]

It seems to me that Preston responds to the greatness and spirituality in Beethoven's art and to my mind is sensibly repelled by the obscenity and vulgarity of much popular music. I mean just look at a sample of lyrics by Eminem

http://www.mattsmusicpage.com/eminem/lwithoutme.htm

It may seem very well to take the lyrics out of context to explain that view. There is indeed a lot of anger and a few obscenities to be found there, no more however, than that which is seen/ heard on television on any given night of the week. I'm not saying it is right, but it is there no the less.

In context however, the juxtaposition of the angry lyrics with the light-hearted, comical musical arrangement is quite good and I feel not to be ignored. Perhaps you would do well to listen to it with an open mind and open ears. I am by no means saying that the songs of Eminem are of the same level of greatness as the music of Beethoven, but in todays society, they are equally as valid.

Eminem has something to say and whilst not quite as elegant and refined as Beethoven, I think he does it quite well. Just as the 'art' of Emin's bed challenges our perceptions of what art is, Beethoven in his day, though more so in his later works, very much challenged their early 19th century perceptions of music and it's structure.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I like it when people push the boundaries and challenge our thoughts and perceptions. It is the only way we can move forward and develop as a society. How boring would the world be today if no-one challenged the idea that all the earth ended at the horizon?

[Peter]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I like it when people push the boundaries and challenge our thoughts and perceptions. It is the only way we can move forward and develop as a society. How boring would the world be today if no-one challenged the idea that all the earth ended at the horizon?

Yes but is nothing unacceptable? Are there no limits to pushing the boundaries? You can justify anything on this basis and not just in the field of art but dangerously in religion and politics as we have witnessed all too recently. Beethoven pushed the classical forms to the limit, he didn't dispense with them and his harmonic language is probably less adventurous than Mozart's. He didn't shock for the sake of shocking - he respected his cultural heritage and turned to it more and more in later life, hence his interest in Gregorian chant, Palestrina, Josquin, Handel.

[Quijote]

Yes but is nothing unacceptable? Are there no limits to pushing the boundaries? You can justify anything on this basis and not just in the field of art but dangerously in religion and politics as we have witnessed all too recently. Beethoven pushed the classical forms to the limit, he didn't dispense with them and his harmonic language is probably less adventurous than Mozart's. He didn't shock for the sake of shocking - he respected his cultural heritage and turned to it more and more in later life, hence his interest in Gregorian chant, Palestrina, Josquin, Handel.

Of course certain things are unacceptable, but 'aesthetic danger' (if I can say it that way) is hardly in the same league as politics and religion. And who is to say where these artistic limits should be? The Catholic church (in the past) often tried to "legislate" music, even going so far as to ban certain intervals (the tritone, for example). We can also see other periods in history (the Nazis as another example) where 'legislators' sought to tell people what they should or shouldn't listen to, read, or look at. Once again, politics meddling in artistic affairs!

Yes LVB did turn to earlier forms of music as you rightly point out, but I think you attribute too much to Beethoven's historical awareness of his cultural heritage. LvB would have been unaware of huge swathes of Bach's music, and I doubt if much (in the way of scores) medieval / Renaissance music would have been available in early 19th century Vienna.

[Peter]

Of course certain things are unacceptable,

Such as?

but 'aesthetic danger' (if I can say it that way) is hardly in the same league as politics and religion. And who is to say where these artistic limits should be? The Catholic church (in the past) often tried to "legislate" music, even going so far as to ban certain intervals (the tritone, for example). We can also see other periods in history (the Nazis as another example) where 'legislators' sought to tell people what they should or shouldn't listen to, read, or look at. Once again, politics meddling in artistic affairs!.

I've never advocated censorship, just the right to express your own opinion without being treated as a half-wit or accused of reading the Daily Mail!



Yes LVB did turn to earlier forms of music as you rightly point out, but I think you attribute too much to Beethoven's historical awareness of his cultural heritage. LvB would have been unaware of huge swathes of Bach's music, and I doubt if much (in the way of scores) medieval / Renaissance music would have been available in early 19th century Vienna.

I think Beethoven had more knowledge than you credit him with.

[Quijote]

Of course certain things are unacceptable,

Such as?

but 'aesthetic danger' (if I can say it that way) is hardly in the same league as politics and religion. And who is to say where these artistic limits should be? The Catholic church (in the past) often tried to "legislate" music, even going so far as to ban certain intervals (the tritone, for example). We can also see other periods in history (the Nazis as another example) where 'legislators' sought to tell people what they should or shouldn't listen to, read, or look at. Once again, politics meddling in artistic affairs!.

I've never advocated censorship, just the right to express your own opinion without being treated as a half-wit.



Yes LVB did turn to earlier forms of music as you rightly point out, but I think you attribute too much to Beethoven's historical awareness of his cultural heritage. LvB would have been unaware of huge swathes of Bach's music, and I doubt if much (in the way of scores) medieval / Renaissance music would have been available in early 19th century Vienna.

I think Beethoven had more knowledge than you credit him with.

I never said you advocated censorship. I am merely asking (rhetorically) who should say where artistic limits should be. You ask me what I find unacceptable. In art and music or in general? In general many things : child pornography, female circumcision and things like that (and more besides, unfortunately). Unacceptable in art and music - good question. Let me reflect and I'll come back to you.

As to B's knowledge - sure, he was more well-read than many give him credit for, but this was not my point. I think his access to early music would have been very limited. I was not trying to suggest that he was uneducated or an ignoramus.

[Peter]

I never said you advocated censorship. I am merely asking (rhetorically) who should say where artistic limits should be. You ask me what I find unacceptable. In art and music or in general? In general many things : child pornography, female circumcision and things like that (and more besides, unfortunately). Unacceptable in art and music - good question. Let me reflect and I'll come back to you.

As to B's knowledge - sure, he was more well-read than many give him credit for, but this was not my point. I think his access to early music would have been very limited. I was not trying to suggest that he was uneducated or an ignoramus.

Well obviously art and music as we can't get too general. As to Beethoven's musical backround don't forget he was taught by Neefe who introduced him to the music of Bach - ok he wasn't necessarily familiar with the whole output, but many important works - of course the 48, the 2 part inventions and sinfonias and he certainly knew the B minor mass as he refers to it in several letters. As organist at Bonn he would again have been exposed to much church music. He possessed the complete 40 volume Handel set, had made copies of music by (among many others) Palestrina whose music he was familiar enough with to comment that he wrote in a true church style. In 1801 he had subscribed to a complete set of Bach's works and made frequent requests for such music from his publishers. His friendship with Baron Von Swieten would also have provided access to these sources. His growing interest in later years in older music is well documented, not least in his own music.

[Quijote]

You introduced the phrase "higher truths" to this thread. What did YOU mean by that?

Sorry Sorrano, It wasn't me that introduced that phrase. I believe it was Preston (?).
Message then to Preston, Megan, PDG, Peter : please, let's bury the axe and move on. Whilst I regret the tone of my responses I do not for one moment retract the 'content', if you see what I mean. Yes, the comments about Emin made me hot under the collar, but not because I admire her work per se (I do, but so what, who cares anyway) but just the way that forum members seemed to dismiss her without really considereing what she might be trying to "say". If her "message" seems to lack "depth" then it might be wise to ask if that is "intentional" before making a value judgement. By the way, there are many more contemporary artists (representational, abstract, purely 'conceptual') who are much more intersting than Emin, but this is a Beethoven forum so let's stay there.
Referring to Peter in particular, if I understand you correctly you object to people not being intellectually honest enough to say 'so-and-so' is a bad artist ('crap' in your parlance). Fair enough; but you agree surely that it is not enough to say so without supporting arguments.
Referring to PDG in particular, I respect too your putting your head on the block (have I never done so, the minute I joined this forum?); let us bury the axe, PDG. For my acidic tongue I have prescribed myself a dose of magnesium (alkaline/alkaloid) and will be less robust in future. Your comments did hurt me somewhat, but ok, let's put that behind us.
Referring to Megan in particular, I was horrified to read the word "bully" applied to me. Me "picking a fight" with several members at one time is hardly the way of a bully. But I have also said to you that I will in future be less robust in my responses.

Fair enough? If not, I'll ask Peter (as "administrator" I believe he can) to remove me from the forum.

So Peter : if the consensus is "get rid of Philip" so be it. Such is life.

Vive Beethoven !!! (absolutely no irony intended)

[Peter]

Sorry Sorrano, It wasn't me that introduced that phrase. I believe it was Preston (?).
Message then to Preston, Megan, PDG, Peter : please, let's bury the axe and move on. Whilst I regret the tone of my responses I do not for one moment retract the 'content', if you see what I mean. Yes, the comments about Emin made me hot under the collar, but not because I admire her work per se (I do, but so what, who cares anyway) but just the way that forum members seemed to dismiss her without really considereing what she might be trying to "say". If her "message" seems to lack "depth" then it might be wise to ask if that is "intentional" before making a value judgement. By the way, there are many more contemporary artists (representational, abstract, purely 'conceptual') who are much more intersting than Emin, but this is a Beethoven forum so let's stay there.
Referring to Peter in particular, if I understand you correctly you object to people not being intellectually honest enough to say 'so-and-so' is a bad artist ('crap' in your parlance). Fair enough; but you agree surely that it is not enough to say so without supporting arguments.
Referring to PDG in particular, I respect too your putting your head on the block (have I never done so, the minute I joined this forum?); let us bury the axe, PDG. For my acidic tongue I have prescribed myself a dose of magnesium (alkaline/alkaloid) and will be less robust in future. Your comments did hurt me somewhat, but ok, let's put that behind us.
Referring to Megan in particular, I was horrified to read the word "bully" applied to me. Me "picking a fight" with several members at one time is hardly the way of a bully. But I have also said to you that I will in future be less robust in my responses.

Fair enough? If not, I'll ask Peter (as "administrator" I believe he can) to remove me from the forum.

So Peter : if the consensus is "get rid of Philip" so be it. Such is life.

Vive Beethoven !!! (absolutely no irony intended)

Firstly Philip I've absolutely no intention of removing you from the forum - I may disagree with you on certain issues but that is healthy! Perhaps we got off on the wrong footing, but as you say let's move on.

Yes it is necessary to distinguish between personal preference and the individual value of an artist - for example I admire and respect Schoenberg, but I can't say I like him - I make the effort to listen to the music because I recognise he was sincere in his ideas and had something new to say.

[Quijote]

Thank you Peter for your reply.

[Quijote]

Well obviously art and music as we can't get too general. As to Beethoven's musical backround don't forget he was taught by Neefe who introduced him to the music of Bach - ok he wasn't necessarily familiar with the whole output, but many important works - of course the 48, the 2 part inventions and sinfonias and he certainly knew the B minor mass as he refers to it in several letters. As organist at Bonn he would again have been exposed to much church music. He possessed the complete 40 volume Handel set, had made copies of music by (among many others) Palestrina whose music he was familiar enough with to comment that he wrote in a true church style. In 1801 he had subscribed to a complete set of Bach's works and made frequent requests for such music from his publishers. His friendship with Baron Von Swieten would also have provided access to these sources. His growing interest in later years in older music is well documented, not least in his own music.

Hello again, Peter. I said I would reflect on what may be unacceptable to me in terms of art / music etc. I must confess that nothing comes to mind, although there are many 'works' out there that I have never seen / heard so maybe I can never post a comment. OK, that it is not strictly true - there is an artist (another YBA / young British artist) whose work makes me uncomfortable (I'm afraid I can't recall his/her name for the moment) : the one with an image of Myra Hindley (60s child killer) made with painted children's hands. The fact that the work 'discomfits' me does not detract from its 'value' however. Again, this is a Beethoven forum so I'll leave it there.

Back to B's cultural heritage : as far as I understand the history Neefe would have introduced the young LvB to Bach's 'Well Tempered...' and 2-part inventions etc as you mention. Again, true, as (assistant) organist in Bonn he would have known other church music but this has not come down to us in great detail and so the nature of that music remains speculative. Again, I maintain that scores of earlier music (except for Handel, perhaps) would have been hard to obtain in 19th century Austria and so B's exposure to such music would have been limited. The repertoire favoured by Van Swieten's private Sunday concerts / rehearsals would also not have been very extensive. That said, it does appear that B was quite well read in terms of poetry and literature, and spoke (to a competent degree) French (as evidenced by certain conversation-book entries).
What I also find fascinating (and not really part of this thread) are the comments by von Breuning about B's ability as a violinist. To paraphrase, it appears that B was really not a good violinist / violist at all (even before deafness set in). It's interesting because his string writing (in the quartets especially) demonstrates an understanding that one would equate with expert-level playing capabilities on string instruments.

[PDG]

What I also find fascinating (and not really part of this thread) are the comments by von Breuning about B's ability as a violinist. To paraphrase, it appears that B was really not a good violinist / violist at all (even before deafness set in). It's interesting because his string writing (in the quartets especially) demonstrates an understanding that one would equate with expert-level playing capabilities on string instruments.

I cannot agree with this summation. I can well imagine Beethoven as a clumsy violinist but that doesn't mean that by default he should be incapable of writing exquisite music for the instrument - his thorough training always saw him through, and his instinctive genius never let him down. His piano playing did not always match what he must have heard in his head (especially on the pianos of the day), and even his autographed manuscripts could look indecipherable to copyists.

[Quijote]

I cannot agree with this summation. I can well imagine Beethoven as a clumsy violinist but that doesn't mean that by default he should be incapable of writing exquisite music for the instrument - his thorough training always saw him through, and his instinctive genius never let him down. His piano playing did not always match what he must have heard in his head (especially on the pianos of the day), and even his autographed manuscripts could look indecipherable to copyists.

Sorry PDG, I in turn cannot agree. 'Clumsy' is not the same as 'poor' and it seems (from von Breuning's comments) that LvB was poor in terms of intonation (very surprising, I agree!) and general technique. Still, one can be a poor string player and still 'understand' what makes for good string writing. As a trained (but unsuccessful) composer I can write for horns (I don't play the horn at all) but I don't know (as a non-player) every 'in-and-out' of the possibilities of that instrument. Sure, I can listen to a whole host of recordings and speak to actual players to enlighten me, but even so as a non-horn player I would still lack a real deep insight into that instrument. This is my point exactly - that even though LvB was (allegedly) a poor string player his writing for string instruments betrays a superb level of understanding.
If I may allow myself one small 'criticism' of B's string writing, it is the 'cello part of the Triple Concerto where (sometimes) the 'cello writing is simply a transcription of the left-hand part of a composer thinking 'pianistically'. In other words, the 'cello part is not always 'idiomatic' and 'feels like' just a left-hand piano passage.
Bruckner was also 'guilty' of this, by the way!