John Tavener, can't quite forgive Beethoven

[Sorrano]

What makes 20th and 21st Century idealism better than the 19th Century idealism? Why should I believe Lawrence Kramer's view of absolute values? Humanity is no better today than we were 1,000 years ago. We are still a depraved people in terms of moral conduct; we still have wars which are more particularly violent and bloody. I don't see why current philosophy should be superior to past philosophy when our conduct hasn't changed.

[Peter]

To return for a moment to Preston's, PDG's, Megan's and Peter's 'higher truths' : the problem with such 19th century idealism of course resides in their perception of music as being autonomous of the world around it, that music (and in their case the music of LvB in particular) provides direct unmediated access to what they would term absolute values of truth and beauty.
The problem is that, in the words of Lawrence Kramer, "there are no such things as absolute values" as all values are necessarily socially constructed; furthermore, he goes on to write, "there can be no such thing as unmediated access as our concepts, beliefs and prior experiences are implicated in all our perceptions".

Time for you (PDG et al.) to give us a take on your 'higher truths'. I have put my head on the block to explain why I admire Emin (and Cage), and now it really is your turn to explain in detail your position.

It isn't 19th century idealism - if there is no greater value to Beethoven than say Jingle bells then why bother listening to Beethoven? Are you saying we can't state that a piece of music such as the 9th symphony is superior to a Clementi symphony and that it is all down to our own perceptions and experiences? If we follow this to its logical conclusion Beethoven's achievement was no more than any composition student which to my mind is clearly ridiculous.

I think Beethoven's own words on the subject contain more wisdom "What will be the judgment a century hence concerning the lauded works of our favorite composers today? Inasmuch as nearly everything is subject to the changes of time, and, more's the pity, the fashions of time, only that which is good and true, will endure like a rock, and no wanton hand will ever venture to defile it. Then let every man do that which is right, strive with all his might toward the goal which can never be attained, develop to the last breath the gifts with which a gracious Creator has endowed him, and never cease to learn; for 'Life is short, art eternal!'"

[Megan]

Philip is like one of those people who go around with a fire extingiusher when there is a flood. I mean we have had criticisms of great music and art around for at least 150 years, but the Brit Pack still keep going on about iconoclasm as though they have invented the word. The phrase I would use to describe people like Francis Bacon and Hirst , is that they are skilled morticians. These are the people who pick at the entrails of their own decadance and corruption and then hold this up to the world as some great insight and fashionable innovation. Indeed , fashion sums these people up, and that is all they really believe in, and an ablolutely childish fixation with trying to shock people. Oh dear, I am really shocked !
The chattering classes and the Metropolitan elite are entirely consummed with passing interests and their own fads, and I wouldn't take their own advice on even crossing the road.

Surely, the definition of a human being is body and spirit, not body and body. The unkempt bed can only point to itself, how can it point anything higher ?. Of course , that gives the game away, the Brit Pack don't acknowledge any higher values, which is up to them, but then why do supposedly intelligent people think there is anything else in it, other than decadence and a kind of continual prurient itching.
No one can come away surely from listening to the late Beethoven String Quartet's without feeling an enormous uplift of a sense of beauty, peace, harmony, tenderness, love, joy not unmixed with melancholy and poignancy.
No one can come away from an unkempt bed with any of these things, quite the contrary, so that one has to say that any person who finds value in such utter ordure, is addicted to a culture of death - like Hirst's bejewelled skull - and not life, and as all great art is utterly life enhancing, this is the simple riposte to the issue in question.

.

[PDG]

Time for you (PDG et al.) to give us a take on your 'higher truths'. I have put my head on the block to explain why I admire Emin (and Cage), and now it really is your turn to explain in detail your position.

And I thought you wanted to put Emin to bed (pardon the pun)? Your position is unsustainable when you are comparing a media-driven screwball female with one of the greatest geniuses in history. There cannot be even a starting point for comparisons. Asking me/us to explain why we think Beethoven is so great is pointless - it's all there in the music if you listen; I mean really listen. The members of this forum are not the only people who admire the composer so much: it's just a pity that so few who understand his place in history, contribute here.

Whatever I say about his music will not satisfy you in terms of it being an answer so I won't bother. Just please bear in mind several things: Beethoven is generallly regarded as the greatest of all composers even among those for whom he is not a personal favourite; he was the first great artist to speak of the human condition; his fame after 200+ years is unassailable; he single-handedly altered the world's concept of the possibilities of music (truly the only international language).

We might be impressed by Shakespeare's plays, or smitten with the poems of Keats or Milton, but none of these leaves us affected the way we feel after hearing a Beethoven composition: so perfectly unique and uniquely perfect, we just want to listen again and again. And we can since Beethoven keeps on giving. I hear hope in his saddest music, and heartbreak in his sweetest music.

I've offered this wonderful quote before, but again in the words of Addorno: "The opening horses' trot of the 'Farewell' (Les Adieux) sonata underscores even more hope than the Four Gospels".

PS. Megan: I thought your post above was excellent! Spot on...

[Michael]

Megan: I thought your post above was excellent! Spot on...

Yes - you and PDG are spot on!

[Quijote]

It isn't 19th century idealism - if there is no greater value to Beethoven than say Jingle bells then why bother listening to Beethoven? Are you saying we can't state that a piece of music such as the 9th symphony is superior to a Clementi symphony and that it is all down to our own perceptions and experiences? If we follow this to its logical conclusion Beethoven's achievement was no more than any composition student which to my mind is clearly ridiculous.

I think Beethoven's own words on the subject contain more wisdom "What will be the judgment a century hence concerning the lauded works of our favorite composers today? Inasmuch as nearly everything is subject to the changes of time, and, more's the pity, the fashions of time, only that which is good and true, will endure like a rock, and no wanton hand will ever venture to defile it. Then let every man do that which is right, strive with all his might toward the goal which can never be attained, develop to the last breath the gifts with which a gracious Creator has endowed him, and never cease to learn; for 'Life is short, art eternal!'"

You really are being obtuse, aren't you, Peter. You should read what I post more attentively. 19th century aesthetics is not about relative value judgements, but an extension of Platonic ideals as to so-called higher (or absolute) truths - which as we have seen are merely social constructs and do not exist in any 'autonomous' sense.

As I have repeatedly tried to tell you, there is absolutely no point in trying to compare art works by, say, Emin and Beethoven, as it is equally futile to compare Jingle Bells with the late quartets. Though in actual fact I challenge you to tell me what is the ontological difference between the Ode to Joy theme and the Jingle Bells theme. And I mean just the themes.

As to the value 'inherent' in a Clementi symphony and LvB's Ninth. When did I say that one was better (or inferior) to the other? Is there a 'golden mean' to be applied here? A universal template?

I have the impression that you seem to be engaged in some sort of inner dialogue when you reply to my postings, as if you are responding to your own questions instead of the issues I try to raise. Anybody can respond to music (I like this, I don't like that, I think 'X' is better than 'Y'); what I would expect of an intelligent forum would be something (just) a little deeper. Will you indulge me?

[Quijote]

Philip is like one of those people who go around with a fire extingiusher when there is a flood. I mean we have had criticisms of great music and art around for at least 150 years, but the Brit Pack still keep going on about iconoclasm as though they have invented the word. The phrase I would use to describe people like Francis Bacon and Hirst , is that they are skilled morticians. These are the people who pick at the entrails of their own decadance and corruption and then hold this up to the world as some great insight and fashionable innovation. Indeed , fashion sums these people up, and that is all they really believe in, and an ablolutely childish fixation with trying to shock people. Oh dear, I am really shocked !
The chattering classes and the Metropolitan elite are entirely consummed with passing interests and their own fads, and I wouldn't take their own advice on even crossing the road.

Surely, the definition of a human being is body and spirit, not body and body. The unkempt bed can only point to itself, how can it point anything higher ?. Of course , that gives the game away, the Brit Pack don't acknowledge any higher values, which is up to them, but then why do supposedly intelligent people think there is anything else in it, other than decadence and a kind of continual prurient itching.
No one can come away surely from listening to the late Beethoven String Quartet's without feeling an enormous uplift of a sense of beauty, peace, harmony, tenderness, love, joy not unmixed with melancholy and poignancy.
No one can come away from an unkempt bed with any of these things, quite the contrary, so that one has to say that any person who finds value in such utter ordure, is addicted to a culture of death - like Hirst's bejewelled skull - and not life, and as all great art is utterly life enhancing, this is the simple riposte to the issue in question.

.

And now let me deal with Megan's position. You seem to read too much into the YBAs manifesto (if I may call it that). By the way, why do you choose to use the term 'Brit Pack'?
To continue, the YBA manifesto was never (implicitly) about iconoclasm, and if anyone keeps 'going on about it' it is people like you, Megan. As they (the YBAs) well know, Duchamps dealt with that issue about 9O years ago.

Try and imagine, Megan, an art form that pays no credence to universally (I would say 19th century) accepted ideas about 'beauty', 'truth', 'meaning', and so on. Try to imagine an art form (and even music) that does not conform to how you think these art forms should be. I imagine you have read Dickens, Hardy, Austen. Are you telling me that literature should always be like that? Or do you accept that literature, painting - sorry, I mean 'art' - and music do evolve (and I don't mean in a necessarily 'linear' sense) and have different 'values', different 'criteria'? Why do you try to equate (negatively)Emin with, say Turner? I don't think the YBAs claim to provide any great insight, and I also believe they are not (like children) trying to shock for the sake of shocking. This is what the Daily Mail (and you) would have us believe. As to your comment about morticians, you have evidently forgotten that it is to the skill (as technique) of old masters such as Michalangelo and others of the Flemish school that we owe this necrophiliac obsession.

The chattering classes and Metropolitan fads? I can't possibly comment - I'm a working class boy and live in a smallish town. Your comment reveals more about your position, however. And it dismays me for its parochialism, in as much as it has no substance.

Next : you accuse me of carrying a fire extinguisher for a flood. A nice mixed metaphor, but what are you trying to say? Me, I pass. If you respond to my posting, please don't focus on this point as it's not important. (There you go, a value judgement!)

Next point : here we go, a seemingly deep philosophical point : "surely the definition of a human being is ... blah blah .." The unmempt bed can only point to what it is, and nothing higher? This is true. Emin never claimed anything different. Why do you claim something different? I would like you to tell me precisely what it is that LvB's late quartets point to. Do they point to extended string-writing technique (i.e. foreshadowing Bartok, perhaps?); do they point to some metaphysical reality (if so, what?); do they point to some sort of "higher truth" (what is that?); can you Megan say something that is not empty rhetoric? I think not, with regret.

Final point : how dare you assume for me what I should come away with after listening to the late quartets. My responses to these magnificent quartets are personal and concern me alone. How dare you - equally - tell me how I should respond to Emin's 'Bed'. People (fools, usually) throughout history have always tried to legislate 'taste' and what others should 'consume' as art (think of the Nazis). Not me. I am proud to state that I admire Beethoven enormously. I also appreciate Emin. And Hirst. And Cage. And many more.

[Quijote]

And I thought you wanted to put Emin to bed (pardon the pun)? Your position is unsustainable when you are comparing a media-driven screwball female with one of the greatest geniuses in history. There cannot be even a starting point for comparisons. Asking me/us to explain why we think Beethoven is so great is pointless - it's all there in the music if you listen; I mean really listen. The members of this forum are not the only people who admire the composer so much: it's just a pity that so few who understand his place in history, contribute here.

Whatever I say about his music will not satisfy you in terms of it being an answer so I won't bother. Just please bear in mind several things: Beethoven is generallly regarded as the greatest of all composers even among those for whom he is not a personal favourite; he was the first great artist to speak of the human condition; his fame after 200+ years is unassailable; he single-handedly altered the world's concept of the possibilities of music (truly the only international language).

We might be impressed by Shakespeare's plays, or smitten with the poems of Keats or Milton, but none of these leaves us affected the way we feel after hearing a Beethoven composition: so perfectly unique and uniquely perfect, we just want to listen again and again. And we can since Beethoven keeps on giving. I hear hope in his saddest music, and heartbreak in his sweetest music.

I've offered this wonderful quote before, but again in the words of Addorno: "The opening horses' trot of the 'Farewell' (Les Adieux) sonata underscores even more hope than the Four Gospels".

PS. Megan: I thought your post above was excellent! Spot on...

And finally my response to our dear PDG. Ah yes. Here we go again, personal insult masquerading as 'critique'. You know the sort of thing : Emin, that bitch, slut, drunk, screwball etc etc ad nauseam. Did anybody ever tell you PDG that such slights do not count as mature argumentation? No? Then wake up and smell the coffee as our American (north) friends are fond of saying.
Once again PDG you fail singularly in your responses. You are not able to explain these 'higher truths' you so enthusiastically refer to. How easy to say 'look at the music, the answers are there'. Very well, I have access to most of the scores (in my faculty library) and CDs (ditto library; and an extensive personal collection in excess of 400 CDs); I am a former professional 'cellist and a trained (if unsuccessful) composer : now tell me, PDG, what these 'higher truths' look like, either via the score, or in other terms. I wait patiently. And with a VERY open mind.

Only few (on this forum) understand his (LvB) place in history and understand his music? I'm sorry? Have I missed something? Just because I admire Emin's oeuvre suddenly I am tone deaf? Really PDG, I should say to you 'see me after class' because you are talking absolute nonsense.

If your postings are indicative of this forum's intellectual (and musical) level then I think it is time we parted company. But don't worry, you needn't leave before I have completed my mission.

[PDG]

And finally my response to our dear PDG. Ah yes. Here we go again, personal insult masquerading as 'critique'. You know the sort of thing : Emin, that bitch, slut, drunk, screwball etc etc ad nauseam. Did anybody ever tell you PDG that such slights do not count as mature argumentation? No? Then wake up and smell the coffee as our American (north) friends are fond of saying.
Once again PDG you fail singularly in your responses. You are not able to explain these 'higher truths' you so enthusiastically refer to. How easy to say 'look at the music, the answers are there'. Very well, I have access to most of the scores (in my faculty library) and CDs (ditto library; and an extensive personal collection in excess of 400 CDs); I am a former professional 'cellist and a trained (if unsuccessful) composer : now tell me, PDG, what these 'higher truths' look like, either via the score, or in other terms. I wait patiently. And with a VERY open mind.

Only few (on this forum) understand his (LvB) place in history and understand his music? I'm sorry? Have I missed something? Just because I admire Emin's oeuvre suddenly I am tone deaf? Really PDG, I should say to you 'see me after class' because you are talking absolute nonsense.

If your postings are indicative of this forum's intellectual (and musical) level then I think it is time we parted company. But don't worry, you needn't leave before I have completed my mission.

What arrogance! I never called anyone a "slut"; I never insulted you, masqueraded or taunted you.

You keep on saying you no longer wish to discuss Emin, yet unfailingly you continue to discuss her!

It really is as simple as I've already stated: If you think someone of the stature of Beethoven needs explanation in terms of their historical importance, then you are indeed in need of some kind of mind or ear-opening therapy of yourself. You are a professional 'cellist and a failed composer? Well, since you mention this, there might just be a link? I grow tired of your mis-interpretations of my postings. Yet again, I state that I have never referred to "higher truths". I do not know why you post so vehemently against me (?). I'd suggest that my views are held by the majority on this forum (not that it's my job to speak for anyone else).

See you after school? No, you haven't yet graduated to that level.

[Quijote]

What arrogance! I never called anyone a "slut"; I never insulted you, masqueraded or taunted you.

You keep on saying you no longer wish to discuss Emin, yet unfailingly you continue to discuss her!

It really is as simple as I've already stated: If you think someone of the stature of Beethoven needs explanation in terms of their historical importance, then you are indeed in need of some kind of mind or ear-opening therapy of yourself. You are a professional 'cellist and a failed composer? Well, since you mention this, there might just be a link? I grow tired of your mis-interpretations of my postings. Yet again, I state that I have never referred to "higher truths". I do not know why you post so vehemently against me (?). I'd suggest that my views are held by the majority on this forum (not that it's my job to speak for anyone else).

See you after school? No, you haven't yet graduated to that level.

Astonishing, PDG! You never said things like, and I quote : "Your position is unsustainable when you are comparing a media-driven screwball female with one of the greatest geniuses in history" ? Did you or did you not use other (negative) adjectives with reference to Emin? Or not?

You have never taunted or insulted me? Reread your postings, PDG.

I don't wish to discuss Emin any more, this is true. I want to discuss / debate what you (and others) mean by 'higher truths'.

I have no doubts as to LvB's stature as composer, pianist, musician and historical figure. Whatever makes you think I do?

I'm afraid that it is YOU who mis-interprets my postings. Makes me think what you hear when YOU listen to music.

A recapitulation (to be read carefully) :

I admire LvB and the art of Emin (there, I said it in the same sentence, oh dear, oh dear);
I accept that many people do not like Emin's (and other YBA's) oeuvre;
I do not appreciate knee-jerk responses to anybody's art without serious informed engagement with said work/artist;
I tend to be sceptical about empty rhetoric along the lines of 'higher truths';
I don't like complacency or smugness;
I don't like unsubstantiated comments in general.

Are we clear, PDG?
Good, then we can now move on.

[PDG]

I love this. Higher Truths! Higher Truths! What are you going on about, man? Nothing in your last post makes any sense at all.

If feeling at war with the world, why don't you just manoeuvre Tracy's bed upon your back and wander off to some other corner of the www? I appreciate your comments and postings but you really should learn to keep your acidic tongue in check. The general feeling here is that we like the music of Beethoven...

[Sorrano]

Philip, "higher truths" is your own coinage. Megan referred to "higher realities", so do you equate the two? In order to discuss this as you would like to there should be some semblance of common ground; otherwise there is no point in discussing this.

[Quijote]

PDG : I am posting at 03.00h in the morning because I have a bad back (this sometimes makes me grumpy) and I cannot sleep. This is not your problem, of course. Your posting makes me think you are up so late for other reasons, and the increasing hysteria of your reponses makes me think it is 'Emin' (or alcohol) related. If that is not the case I apologise unreservedly.
However, if I come across as arrogant I apologise. If I come across as someone who responds robustly to uninformed comments then I do not apologise. This is the reason for my acidic tongue.

It may be a surprise to you PDG, but the music of LvB has been a mainstay in my life for many years; it was the music of LvB tha made me become a musician; I have great admiration for his music; most of my (400) CDs are by him, as is my extensive score library.

I would love to move off Emin. I just thought she needed defending against (I'm sorry to say) philistinism.

[Quijote]

Philip, "higher truths" is your own coinage. Megan referred to "higher realities", so do you equate the two? In order to discuss this as you would like to there should be some semblance of common ground; otherwise there is no point in discussing this.

Sorrano : Megan referred to "higher realities" and others (Peter, PDG et al) referred to "higher truths". Is that common ground enough for you? And what do both mean? I wait patiently with a VERY open mind.

[DavidO]

There is no possible way that you have a true sense of Beethoven's, Bach's, Handel's, etc., music if you are listening to the bands you named. As the lyrics of the "Ode to Joy" state, "touched with fire, we come, to thy radiant shrine". The music you named is certainly touched with fire my man. At least that is how I see it, maybe I am wrong.

Beethoven vs. James Hetfield: Battle of the Contrapuntists!