Copying Beethoven: Beethoven as Christ

[mhender668]

I just watched Copying Beethoven twice, and some things about it bothered me. Obviously, there is the character of Anna who, besides being played by an untalented actress, was unnecessary in order to give rise to a good story about Beethoven. What was the point to destroying the model bridge? To show that Beethoven was mean? Again, unnecessary. Anna conducting at the 9th? Totally preposterous. The "wash me" scene? Without explanation. So what is going on? Well, there are endless religious references, that again are unnecessary. There is the convent, the ridiculous scene where Anna is talking to Jesus about her "gift," and many other examples. It was also disturbing that the story did not really talk about the music, and that the story had nothing to do with historical fact. Then it occurred to me: this is not a movie about Beethoven, it is a movie about Jesus and Mary Magdalene.

I am not a religious man, I don't even believe in God. But it became obvious after a while. Consider this:

At the beginning, when Anna is first seeing the publisher, Beethoven comes in and says something to the effect that he is on the cross and that the publisher is driving nails into him.

There are constant religious references, particularly with respect to how close Beethoven is to God.

It explains the "wash me" scene

There are many others, but for the sake of brevity I will omit them. I only throw this out for consideration, and if you watch the movie, look at it from that perspective.

[Chris]

I think you are reading far too much into this. The explicitly religious dialog was more for the sake of establishing the authenticity of the film's representation of that society, I think. As for the rest, Beethoven clearly had quite a spiritual side, and what he perceived as his relationship with God was fairly accurately represented in the film, I would say. But Beethoven as representing Christ is taking it too far - that was obviously not the point of the film.

[Peter]

I just watched Copying Beethoven twice, and some things about it bothered me. Obviously, there is the character of Anna who, besides being played by an untalented actres, was unnecessary in order to give rise to a good story about Beethoven. What was the point to destroying the model bridge? To show that Beethoven was mean? Again, unnecessary. Anna conducting at the 9th? Totally preposterous. The "wash me" scene? Without explanation. So what is going on? Well, there are endless religious references, that again are unnecessary. There is the convent, the ridiculous scene where Anna is talking to Jesus about her "gift," and many other examples. It was also disturbing that the story did not really talk about the music, and that the story had nothing to do with historical fact. Then it occurred to me: this is not a movie about Beethoven, it is a movie about Jesus and Mary Magdalene.

I am not a religious man, I don't even believe in God. But it became obvious after a while. Consider this:

At the beginning, when Anna is first seeing the publisher, Beethoven comes in and says something to the effect that he is on the cross and that the publisher is driving nails into him.

There are constant religious references, particularly with respect to how close Beethoven is to God.

It explains the "wash me" scene

There are many others, but for the sake of brevity I will omit them. I only throw this out for consideration, and if you watch the movie, look at it from that perspective.

I haven't watched the film yet but it is apparently due out in London soon. I understand your frustrations with the Anna character, and since we were consulted right from the start about this production with a view to authenticity it did come as something of a shock. However Mr.Rivele has assured us of the need to fictionalise her in order to obtain funding - I shall remain open minded until I've seen it and certainly feedback from the members here has been very positive.

[Hollywood]

However Mr.Rivele has assured us of the need to fictionalise her in order to obtain funding...

This is what I hate about "the powers that be" in Hollywood that they feel it is necessary for a film to have that little extra bit of sex appeal to sell tickets. It's sad that a film like "Copying Beethoven" could not get enough funding until they added the fictional Anna character. I personally didn't care for this character and didn't like her being included in the performance scene of the 9th symphony but this is just MHO.

I also had another problem with this german model/actress who played Anna. Her American accent was way too strong and on edge for me. I guess that I have become spoiled with hearing British actors like Paul Rhys and Ian Hart's accents in the last two Beethoven TV mini series on the BBC. After living in Europe for almost 14 years now I hear more english spoken with British accents than I do in my own American accent. It might just be me but the English accent is so much nicer on the ears than my own. Unfortunately the American Hollywood accent can be too brutal and razor sharp in MHO.

[Peter]

This is what I hate about "the powers that be" in Hollywood that they feel it is necessary for a film to have that little extra bit of sex appeal to sell tickets. It's sad that a film like "Copying Beethoven" could not get enough funding until they added the fictional Anna character. I personally didn't care for this character and didn't like her being included in the performance scene of the 9th symphony but this is just MHO.

I also had another problem with this german model/actress who played Anna. Her American accent was way too strong and on edge for me. I guess that I have become spoiled with hearing British actors like Paul Rhys and Ian Hart's accents in the last two Beethoven TV mini series on the BBC. After living in Europe for almost 14 years now I hear more english spoken with British accents than I do in my own American accent. It might just be me but the English accent is so much nicer on the ears than my own. Unfortunately the American Hollywood accent can be too brutal and razor sharp in MHO.

Again Hollywood I sympathise with your views on Anna - I would have preferred any film of Beethoven's last years to focus on the relationship with the nephew - surely enough drama in that! Oh well I suppose if just one person has been converted to the music of Beethoven then it was worthwhile, but maybe more would have been with a true story?

As for English accents, we have a very diverse range in our little Island as you do in America - just be thankful that Beethoven wasn't played with a Birmingham accent or Anna with scouse!

[susanwen]

I had the impression that the "wash me" scene was a euphemism for a sexual relationship. No, I don't have a dirty mind, I don't read sex into everything, but I thought that was rather well done, actually.

[jem]

The Christ references are interesting -- but I'm not sure they were intentional. To me there seems to be an attempt to show Beethoven's spirituality that doesn't quite come across smoothly -- but yes, the washing, the reverence, the attempts to "know" Beethoven better -- hm. Very interesting idea in comparing Anna to Mary Magdelene!

I just watched the DVD and I am SO disappointed. I really had high hopes for this film, having followed the discussion for quite some time. *sigh* Beethoven is portrayed as a fool, it felt to me, and the same old stigmas are present -- the ideas of a drunken Beethoven and a sex-driven Beethoven are portrayed yet again. There is simply no firm evidence for these character traits -- it is all based on conjecture, and in some cases (the use of prostitution) rather far fetched from the detailed reading I have done. But honestly, would Beethoven have paraded around naked in front of a young woman he hardly knew? It's not in keeping with his character at all!

There are several attempts at humor in the film that I think fall completely flat, and the idea of Beethoven "needing" Anna is simply ridiculous. In fact, Anna takes over the movie. It seems to be more about her life in some cases! I am grateful that the deleted scenes were, mercifully, deleted! (Although the rehearsal scene for the Fugue starts out quite well.)

The positives: Hearing the brilliant music! And the period costumes and instruments were quite nice during the Ninth. And for me, the attempts to portray Beethoven's spirituality were the parts that held my interest the most. Although why not use lines from his letters and diaries? Inventing words for him simply wasn't necessary. His spirituality is not hard to find.

The story of Karl was incomplete, and actually misleading in some cases. The drama there is never fully developed. I agree completely with Peter -- this story could be well told and we would not need a young, beautiful woman flashing skin and washing Beethoven's abdomen in soft, dreamy light to try to build interest in the life of such an amazing man.

[mhender668]

Grosse Fuga

Unlike most people, I expected to hate the movie. The thought of this woman with a thick American accent being the focus of the movie horrified me. The trailer showing her "conducting" disgusted me. I almost didn't watch it. But, of course, I could not resist.

I must say that the movie did not bother me as much as I expected. Anna's character was kept under control by the director, at least to the extent that she was not as offensive as I had expected. I took comfort in that fact, and the fact that the scenes that most vividly illustrated Kruger's lack of acting talent were cut from the movie.

My favorite scene was when Beethoven was playing her music, making farting noises, and saying that she had invented "fortissimo." That resolved a lot of tension for me because that is what I thought of Anna and her "music." The notion that she could compose and show it to Beethoven and have him approve were as utterly preposterous as the notion that she "corrected" a key change in the 9th. You have got to be sh#%$#ing me.

The most important part of the movie, however, and what made it for me, is the attention paid to the Grosse Fuga. This piece is generally ignored in documentaries and movies. It is, however, the most important piece of music ever written. I liked the way it was played at the beginning, and I like that the movie ended on it, although I didn't like the scene where people were walking out. I don't think that was historically accurate.

A friend of mine once told me that Debussy was the inventor of modern music. As I believe it should be a crime to allow a Frenchman to have a pencil and staff paper at the same time, I corrected him and told him it was Beethoven. He disagreed, so I let him listen to the Grosse Fuga. When he gave it back to me he said: "you're right." And so I am.

[Megan]

Why the need for two conductors ??

[Hollywood]

While we are on the topic of this film, which is about Beethoven and the performance of his 9th Symphony, I found this site on a new book by Susan Haugland titled "Three Weeks in Vienna". This book is refered to as a "charming new addition to Beethoven literature recants the story of the premiere of Beethoven's magnificent Ninth Symphony as seen through the eyes of the young contralto soloist, Karoline Unger." It's listed as historical fiction but might be an interesting read. You can check it out here:
http://www.geocities.com/susancsals/

[PDG]

He disagreed, so I let him listen to the Grosse Fuga. When he gave it back to me he said: "you're right." And so I am.

And so you are...

[Michael]

Was it Stravinsky who said of the Grosse Fugue: This absolutely contemporary piece of music that will always be contemporary?

[Peter]

Was it Stravinsky who said of the Grosse Fugue: This absolutely contemporary piece of music that will always be contemporary?

Yes and he was right!