Beethoven and Women

[Preston]

I think you are idealising Beethoven too much - his music is great, sublime, spiritual yes, but the man was all too human. Like most heterosexual men he was attracted to beautiful women - there is no mystery to that!

I was just checking, ...if there was anything else he said.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[Sorrano]

[quote by Peter]
My point is that I think it is wrong to either judge the art by the artist or to infer some sort of moral, spiritual superiority of the artist because of his/her work.

*********************************************

This is so true Peter, and I find this fascinating .
For instance, I find the same with Byron, his poetry very much appeals to me, but couldn't care less about his mad bad s e x u a l hangups. Some slushy authors writing about Byron only concentrate on this sensual side of his nature just to sell their books. Poor old Beethoven gets it too, why can't folk just appreciate their genuis and be enriched by their works, instead of finding fault. We are by nature all complex creatures. Not made perfect .

Well, I'm not anyway

Sometimes these "hangups" are what drive the music (I am thinking of Tchaikowsky at the moment) but even then the music can and is enjoyed without that knowledge. But I do agree with you; we shouldn't make the composers something that they are not even when their music transcends our normal emotional feelings.

[Agnes Selby]

Beethoven

Dear Preston,


Beethoven was a lover of beauty, be it the beauty of nature or women.
In the idealized world of the 19th century, Beethoven's life was not complicated by modern psychology. I doubt that he looked for inner beauty in a woman whose looks would not have pleased him. There is absolutely nothing wrong with such a concept. After all, do men today look only for inner beauty or are we women wasting our time trying to look beautiful?

Regards,
Agnes.

[terry]

[QUOTE=Agnes Selby;36415]Dear Preston,


Beethoven was a lover of beauty, be it the beauty of nature or women.
In the idealized world of the 19th century, Beethoven's life was not complicated by modern psychology. I doubt that he looked for inner beauty in a woman whose looks would not have pleased him. There is absolutely nothing wrong with such a concept. After all, do men today look only for inner beauty or are we women wasting our time trying to look beautiful?
WELL SAID AGNES!
Everybody knows that also spiritual men prefer good-looking instead of ugly women, psychologists and anthropologists explain why (actually, I found this a bit strange, asserted by a man...sorry preston). A famous tv series is on our tv screen now:"ugly betty". It seems it's going to have success even if it's nonsense

[Preston]

Beethoven was a lover of beauty, be it the beauty of nature or women.

Keep in mind that those are two totally different beauty's, in my opinion.

Terry, keep in mind that Vincent Van Gogh was a very spiritual person, who said something like... we should look into the spirits of people and not the body (I will try to find the exact words. He wrote it in a letter to his brother, Theo. I will post them, when I find them.)

Found it, Van Gogh states this, "What is the use of a beautiful body, animals have it too... perhaps even more then men... but... the soul, as it lives in the people, that's what animals never have. Is not life given us to become richer in spirit."

Also keep in mind that one of the first lessons taught in spirituality is to look into the eyes of the beholder.

And as for "Ugly Betty", I feel that it is another show that simply does not help the state of the world, so to say. People, such as very serious monks, would never dare watch it.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[Chaszz]

Although there are numerous examples of artists who are all too human when compared with the subimity of their art, to me personally the best example is Richard Strauss. In his Four Last Songs I feel he reaches a level of serene moving bliss which makes me feel he has already crossed to the other side. Seemingly an expression of elevated and pure wisdom. But written by a man who had greedily vied to take over any post vacated by a Jewish conductor driven out by Hitler. And a man who, when informed of the firebombing of Dresden which maimed and killed hundreds of thousands of his countrymen, as well as destroying a jewel of a city, could only think to complain that a performance of one of his operas had had to be cancelled because of the bombing! In other words, a complete moral zero writing some of the most sublime music ever. And teaching us that the wisdom that art seems to exhude is often only that - the wisdom of art and not life itself, however much it seems to really be the latter.

As a matter of interest in this vein, a new biography of Stalin contains some not-bad poetry he wrote in his youth. I'd had no idea he was a poet. So he joins Hitler, the aspiring watercolor painter and architect, as another frustrated artist become mass murderer. I think also of the wife of the Serbian dictator Milosovitch, who was a poet and developed into an evil spirit egging her husband on to mass murder. So in general artists, with their intensely personal worlds and visions, are often not the best of moral creatures.

Of course I'm not putting Beethoven anywhere near these monsters. Just saying that the art often does not reveal the whole truth of the person to us, though it certainly SEEMS to.

[Agnes Selby]

Beethoven and beauty

Dear Preston,

Why do you think that the love of the beauty of nature is different from the love of a beautiful woman? Beauty in any form is appealing to the senses.
Beethoven, from his writing, appears to have been a highly sensual man.
And, of course, there is his music! His music is not the expression of a whimpy man. And then there are his many passions. He could hate with a passion (his sister-in-law, for example), he could love with a passion (see: his nephew), he could be disdainful with a passion (see Lichnowsky). Why then do you think he would have felt passionate for an ugly woman?

You must also take into consideration the times and mores of Beethoven's lifetime, as already suggested on this board. Women, after all, were not
considered brainy or highly educated. Education was not the highest prerogative of an 18th or early 19th century woman. Nor were "blue-stockings" regarded as the ultimate life-time partners.

I have a letter here from someone to an ancestor of mine written in Vienna
on August 9, 1818. Loosely translated it reads: "Joseph married an ugly, rich woman. He will be able to tolerate her only with a sack over her head".

I am sorry to disagree with you for your ideas are most noble.

Regards,
Agnes.

[Preston]

Dear Preston,
Why do you think that the love of the beauty of nature is different from the love of a beautiful woman?

Why then do you think he would have felt passionate for an ugly woman?

Regards,
Agnes.

The difference between the beauty of nature and women is too hard to explain. The beauty of nature is like looking into the soul of a truly caring spirit, because it is such a pure form of life.

I am not saying that Beethoven would have felt passionate for an unattractive woman, that is the question I was asking. Although, I do feel that he cared for people of all different types very much, rather they be rich or poor. From what I have read the percentage of attractive people is low when compared to unattractive, so you could imagine that many people love and care for unattractive people, whether it be through marriage or family, or just in general, caring.

Kind Regards Agnes,
Preston

[Peter]

Although there are numerous examples of artists who are all too human when compared with the subimity of their art, to me personally the best example is Richard Strauss. In his Four Last Songs I feel he reaches a level of serene moving bliss which makes me feel he has already crossed to the other side. Seemingly an expression of elevated and pure wisdom. But written by a man who had greedily vied to take over any post vacated by a Jewish conductor driven out by Hitler. And a man who, when informed of the firebombing of Dresden which maimed and killed hundreds of thousands of his countrymen, as well as destroying a jewel of a city, could only think to complain that a performance of one of his operas had had to be cancelled because of the bombing! In other words, a complete moral zero writing some of the most sublime music ever. And teaching us that the wisdom that art seems to exhude is often only that - the wisdom of art and not life itself, however much it seems to really be the latter.

As a matter of interest in this vein, a new biography of Stalin contains some not-bad poetry he wrote in his youth. I'd had no idea he was a poet. So he joins Hitler, the aspiring watercolor painter and architect, as another frustrated artist become mass murderer. I think also of the wife of the Serbian dictator Milosovitch, who was a poet and developed into an evil spirit egging her husband on to mass murder. So in general artists, with their intensely personal worlds and visions, are often not the best of moral creatures.

Of course I'm not putting Beethoven anywhere near these monsters. Just saying that the art often does not reveal the whole truth of the person to us, though it certainly SEEMS to.

Quite right Chaszz - Richard Strauss was actually quite an abonimable character whose virilent anti-semitism was well documented way before the nazis came to power. He had no qualms about conducting the Vienna Philharmonic as an example of 'Germaness in music' in the full knowledge that around 20 of its Jewish members (who he had known and worked wth for decades) had been shipped off to certain death in the concentration camps. Yet he wrote some great music - for me Don Juan, Rosenkavalier and the Four last songs are the best things.

[Peter]

From what I have read the percentage of attractive people is low when compared to unattractive, so you could imagine that many people love and care for unattractive people, whether it be through marriage or family, or just in general, caring.

Kind Regards Agnes,
Preston

It's all in the eye of the beholder! How many times do we hear "I don't know what he sees in her"?

It has to be said that Beethoven had difficulties in finding a wife because he was such an idealist - not only did she have to be attractive physically, she had to be intelligent, musical and of the nobility. From such a ladies point of view, Beethoven was not quite the catch she or her family would have had in mind!