Beethoven and Women

[Preston]

The more I read the more I wonder about Beethoven and sex, women, sexuality, his looks, etc.

What I have read states that Beethoven was turned down by almost every woman that he tried to love. Is this true? I have also read that people questioned his sexuality, stating the he may be gay (Around the time when he tried to starve himself to death, was when Countess Erdody wondered about this. I think I read that.)? I know this is not true but do y'all have any information on this?

Do y'all consider Beethoven to be a lustful man?

What about his looks? I have read in Solomon and what Schindler (both of them give good descriptions) wrote stating that he was rough looking and somewhat unattractive, and just dirty. I read that a girl broke up with him because she said he was ugly and half crazy, is this true? I imagine that his looks would be the reason he didn't get a lot of the beautiful countesses he pursued.

What I am about to say took a lot of guts so bear with me. To me Beethoven being unattractive gives me hope. I am not saying I am that unattractive, but I do not have a problem with people who are. When I think of Beethoven I want to imagine someone who didn't get involved in looks, who was a different type of person than someone who obsessed about himself and cared more for life than about being cool or the MAN. Who cared for the other man as much as himself, who wouldn't make fun of nerds, overweight people, unattractive people, etc. Someone who stood for truth.

Things that give me hope about Beethoven are that he stood for the common man, that he stood for the poor man, that he didn't get lost in vanity, that he didn't get lost in lust, that he was extremely spiritual (this would mean the things I said have to be true, I feel), that he was a pure spirit, that he cared dearly for life, that he stayed away from sin (unless he couldn't), etc. I mean when I go to Wal-Mart, or the mall, or Kmart, or anywhere, I see people that need hope in their lives. People so big that their ankles touch each other and they can't where tied tennis shoes, people without teeth, people that are starving, people that have been beaten by their spouse, gangsters (I hate them, unbelievably), etc, etc., etc. Truly, these are the things I feel that Beethoven stood for, am I that wrong? THE PEOPLE, is what I imagined Beethoven standing for. Not these rich pricks (not saying that all people who are rich are pricks of course), or people are unbelievably attractive and lustful who sit around having sex,or people that do drugs all day, or are deceitful, or people who lie cheat and steal. FOR THE COMMON and DIFFERENT and UNIQUE MAN, is what I feel that Beethoven stood for.

I know that he was not perfect and that he lived in brothels, was bad tempered, etc. In my head, I have felt, since I started reading about Beethoven, that those were things that got in his way, and that he couldn't help.

Any help would be much appreciated to my understanding of Beethoven.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

The more I read the more I wonder about Beethoven and sex, women, sexuality, his looks, etc.

What I have read states that Beethoven was turned down by almost every woman that he tried to love. Is this true? I have also read that people questioned his sexuality, stating the he may be gay (Around the time when he tried to starve himself to death, was when Countess Erdody wondered about this. I think I read that.)? I know this is not true but do y'all have any information on this?

Do y'all consider Beethoven to be a lustful man?

Here are two quotes from musicologist Susan McClary that demonstrate the ludicrous situation of today's 'new musicology':

'The extraordinary history of scholars fetishizing the letter to the *immortal beloved* dramatizes how desperately we have wanted to prove Beethoven's *normality*. That all we have is a single letter to an unidentified person that perhaps was never sent shows the poverty of Beethoven's personal life. Schubert's was incomparably richer.'

('Constructions of Subjectivity in Schubert's Music', in 'Queering the Pitch. The New Gay and Lesbian Musicology', NY 1994, p. 231.)

[She actually thinks that Beethoven only wrote a single letter!]

'We have to be careful, however not to continue positioning Beethoven as >straight< in opposition to Schubert, for Beethoven was scarcely a champion of heterosexuality, even if he did succeed in constructing what has been accepted as an ideal of masculinity in music. As Solomon's biography makes clear, this man was highly conflicted with respect to his sexuality: he never managed to sustain an intimate relationship, and his inclinations were decidedly homosocial - sometimes expressly homoerotic.

('Music and Sexuality', 19th-Century-Music, Summer 1993, vol. XVII, p. 88.

[Preston]

Here are two quotes from musicologist Susan McClary that demonstrate the ludicrous situation of today's 'new musicology':

'The extraordinary history of scholars fetishizing the letter to the *immortal beloved* dramatizes how desperately we have wanted to prove Beethoven's *normality*. That all we have is a single letter to an unidentified person that perhaps was never sent shows the poverty of Beethoven's personal life. Schubert's was incomparably richer.'

('Constructions of Subjectivity in Schubert's Music', in 'Queering the Pitch. The New Gay and Lesbian Musicology', NY 1994, p. 231.)

[She actually thinks that Beethoven only wrote a single letter!]

'We have to be careful, however not to continue positioning Beethoven as >straight< in opposition to Schubert, for Beethoven was scarcely a champion of heterosexuality, even if he did succeed in constructing what has been accepted as an ideal of masculinity in music. As Solomon's biography makes clear, this man was highly conflicted with respect to his sexuality: he never managed to sustain an intimate relationship, and his inclinations were decidedly homosocial - sometimes expressly homoerotic.

('Music and Sexuality', 19th-Century-Music, Summer 1993, vol. XVII, p. 88.

Not that I have anything against gay people, except the gay people that are just... bizarre (dress as women and things like that), but it sounds to me like she is bashing Beethoven and in a very odd way! That is ludicrous!

Where is the care for the art and the person?

[Peter]

Firstly Preston I'd say that you are reading the wrong biographies - Solomon and Schindler should only be read (if at all) when you've read other more reliable sources (Thayer/Forbes, Landon, Cooper) so you can judge more accurately their opinions.

Judging by contemporary accounts Beethoven was not an attractive man physically (however his early portraits are more flattering). He himself though was very attracted to beautiful women and stated he could only love someone who was beautiful. As to his being gay, there is not a shred of evidence to suggest this - only the twisted intepretations of 20th century psychologists who go as far as to imply an incestuous relationship with his nephew.

Beethoven was a deeply spiritual person with impossibly high ideals - he was also human and rather quick to judge others for their failings resulting in the break up of friendships and often violent quarrels. His was a very complex nature and it would have taken a superwoman to have understood him let alone marry him!

You must also realise it was a different era where class and social standing were all important - you cannot compare it to today's world. Beethoven was primarily attracted to beautiful women from the aristocracy - these women who were his ideal, though greatly admiring Beethoven would not have considered him a great marriage prospect.

[Preston]

Firstly Preston I'd say that you are reading the wrong biographies - Solomon and Schindler should only be read (if at all) when you've read other more reliable sources (Thayer/Forbes, Landon, Cooper) so you can judge more accurately their opinions.

Judging by contemporary accounts Beethoven was not an attractive man physically (however his early portraits are more flattering). He himself though was very attracted to beautiful women and stated he could only love someone who was beautiful. As to his being gay, there is not a shred of evidence to suggest this - only the twisted intepretations of 20th century psychologists who go as far as to imply an incestuous relationship with his nephew.

Beethoven was a deeply spiritual person with impossibly high ideals - he was also human and rather quick to judge others for their failings resulting in the break up of friendships and often violent quarrels. His was a very complex nature and it would have taken a superwomen to have lived with him!

Thank you Peter for the information. I will definitely look into the suggestion about the books you recommended.

I am not trying to get to technical but I am surprised that he said he could only love someone who is beautiful. Seeing, in my opinion, as part of spirituality is looking into the soul of the person and not judging their spirit on the outside but on the inside. Maybe he meant that that he could only love a beautiful spirit??? Not saying that their is anything wrong with attractive people, of course.

[Peter]

Thank you Peter for the information. I will definitely look into the suggestion about the books you recommended.

I am not trying to get to technical but I am surprised that he said he could only love someone who is beautiful. Seeing, in my opinion, as part of spirituality is looking into the soul of the person and not judging their spirit on the outside but on the inside. Maybe he meant that that he could only love a beautiful spirit??? Not saying that their is anything wrong with attractive people, of course.

No I think it is clear from this quote from a letter of 1809 to Baron von Gleichenstein he meant physically attractive:
"Now you can help me to find a wife. If you find a beautiful
woman in F. who, mayhap, endows my music with a sigh,--but she
must be no Elise Burger--make a provisional engagement. But she
must be beautiful, for I can love only the beautiful; otherwise I
might love myself."

Beethoven was a mass of contradictions for he also said "I love most the realm of mind which, to me, is the highest of all spiritual and temporal monarchies." (To Advocate Kauka in the summer of 1814. He had been speaking about the monarchs represented in the Congress of Vienna.)

I think you have to distinguish the artist from his works - Beethoven was no saint, he was an idealist. The 19th century tended to white wash its heroes, which is one reason why Schindler destroyed much documtented material - this would have been against Beethoven's own wishes (ironically related by Schindler) "It is my sincere desire that whatever shall be said of me
hereafter shall adhere strictly to the truth in every respect
regardless of who may be hurt thereby, me not excepted." Of course Beethoven may not actually have said that, Schindler simply may have wished to add authority to his own account.

[Preston]

I think you have to distinguish the artist from his works...

Peter, would you please be kind enough to elaborate on this?

Are you saying that Beethoven's works are different than Beethoven on the outside (the violent man, etc.)? That is how I have always looked at it.

[Peter]

I mean that all too often the artist as a human being is at odds with the perfection of his work. There are numerous cases of really unpleasant people (Wagner, Caravaggio, Gesualdo for example) who produced sublime work. My point is that I think it is wrong to either judge the art by the artist or to infer some sort of moral, spiritual superiority of the artist because of his/her work.

In Beethoven's case I do not think he was a bad person - he meant well and had very deep convictions - however his actions were often terrible, especially in the case of his nephew and his dealings with his sister in law. He however was convinced he was acting in the boy's best interest - the result was to drive karl to attempting suicide.

[Chris]

I mean that all too often the artist as a human being is at odds with the perfection of his work. There are numerous cases of really unpleasant people (Wagner, Caravaggio, Gesualdo for example) who produced sublime work. My point is that I think it is wrong to either judge the art by the artist or to infer some sort of moral, spiritual superiority of the artist because of his/her work.

So true...

[Preston]

Peter, I have a question, if you don't mind answering. First, let me say to you all that I am glad that Beethoven can be differed from his music. That gives me much hope.

The question is, since you are a professional musician, would you mind telling me what you think of Jeremy Soule? I would be most appreciative. He is a video game composer who is one of the top ranked musicians in the world, I think. Here is the link to the website to his music. If you listen, please listen to the "OBLIVION" score. I feel that it is very good.

Any other comments, from the any other members, about Jeremy would be most appreciative. Has anyone played the game?

Kind Regards,
Preston

[Peter]

Peter, I have a question, if you don't mind answering. First, let me say to you all that I am glad that Beethoven can be differed from his music. That gives me much hope.

The question is, since you are a professional musician, would you mind telling me what you think of Jeremy Soule? I would be most appreciative. He is a video game composer who is one of the top ranked musicians in the world, I think. Here is the link to the website to his music. If you listen, please listen to the "OBLIVION" score. I feel that it is very good.

Any other comments, from the any other members, about Jeremy would be most appreciative. Has anyone played the game?

Kind Regards,
Preston

Hi Preston,

I was unable to open the file, but I listened to another piece from a different website - the music is pleasant but I didn't think it was exactly original, sounding like most post Star wars film music. All great composers from the past have their own individual sound and here we have the dilemma that composers are in today - how to be original when it has all been done before, and better! Interesting times but we do not have a Beethoven, Wagner or Stravinsky to make us sit up and say this is totally new, revolutionary.

[Preston]

Hi Preston,

I was unable to open the file, but I listened to another piece from a different website - the music is pleasant but I didn't think it was exactly original, sounding like most post Star wars film music. All great composers from the past have their own individual sound and here we have the dilemma that composers are in today - how to be original when it has all been done before, and better! Interesting times but we do not have a Beethoven, Wagner or Stravinsky to make us sit up and say this is totally new, revolutionary.

Peter, thank you for taking the time to listen and comment. I am glad you found it pleasant. I do agree that it is not in a style of its own.

[Preston]

No I think it is clear from this quote from a letter of 1809 to Baron von Gleichenstein he meant physically attractive:
"Now you can help me to find a wife. If you find a beautiful
woman in F. who, mayhap, endows my music with a sigh,--but she
must be no Elise Burger--make a provisional engagement. But she
must be beautiful, for I can love only the beautiful; otherwise I
might love myself."

Once again, sorry to get to technical but, I am only trying to learn more about Beethoven by posting this. Does anyone know if he said anything else about beauty and love in his last period or any other time? It is hard for me to believe that Beethoven based his love on beauty. He might have been confused when he wrote that, or in a deep depression, who knows??? Any help would be appreciated.

I, personally, feel that Beethoven was of the highest degree of spirituality, from what I have studied.

Beethoven gives me hope because he speaks for mankind in my opinion. Especially the suffering, part of mankind.

So if he ever mentioned love in any other way please let me know. I just don't understand.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[Megan]

[quote by Peter]
My point is that I think it is wrong to either judge the art by the artist or to infer some sort of moral, spiritual superiority of the artist because of his/her work.

*********************************************

This is so true Peter, and I find this fascinating .
For instance, I find the same with Byron, his poetry very much appeals to me, but couldn't care less about his mad bad s e x u a l hangups. Some slushy authors writing about Byron only concentrate on this sensual side of his nature just to sell their books. Poor old Beethoven gets it too, why can't folk just appreciate their genuis and be enriched by their works, instead of finding fault. We are by nature all complex creatures. Not made perfect .

Well, I'm not anyway

[Peter]

Once again, sorry to get to technical but, I am only trying to learn more about Beethoven by posting this. Does anyone know if he said anything else about beauty and love in his last period or any other time? It is hard for me to believe that Beethoven based his love on beauty. He might have been confused when he wrote that, or in a deep depression, who knows??? Any help would be appreciated.

I, personally, feel that Beethoven was of the highest degree of spirituality, from what I have studied.

Beethoven gives me hope because he speaks for mankind in my opinion. Especially the suffering, part of mankind.

So if he ever mentioned love in any other way please let me know. I just don't understand.

Kind Regards,
Preston

I think you are idealising Beethoven too much - his music is great, sublime, spiritual yes, but the man was all too human. Like most heterosexual men he was attracted to beautiful women - there is no mystery to that!