Beethoven and The Devil's Trill sonata

[Preston]

Well, I would imagine that even if Tartini had the dream, the music probably sounded better to him in the dream than it would actually sound, written out on paper (which is why he may have interpreted the "Devil's" playing as being otherworldly and high vituosic).

To make the assumption that there are "supernatural" forces at work here is a pretty hefty assumption (that these forces exist in the first place for example).

Tartini was probably pretty smart when it came to the violin, seeing as that is almost all he composed for was the violin, and I imagine he could easily tell how well a violin was played. So no I don't think that it just sounded better to him in the dream, I think he understood the playing style and techniques and the unimaginable virtuosity.

I do believe somewhat in a supernatural spirit, whether it can think or not I don't know, whether it can feel or not I don't know, whether it knows or not I don't know, but I do believe there is possibly some form of supernatural forces. It has taken me along time to come to this conclusion. But then again no one knows for sure, in my opinion. There are just so many things to think about, when trying to understand things about the great divine.

I definitely believe in spiritual things. Like different, spiritual mind frames, almost supernatural abilities, spiritual feelings, good life, spiritual states of being, the way the universe is formed that there is something so amazing about it that it can provide us with a mind and create life (in plants and living things), absolutely unimaginable things that are the greatest phenomena ever, the list goes on, etc. I feel it is a very very spiritual world (even though it is almost completely messed up).

Kind Regards,
Preston

[HaydnFan]

I am aware of Tartini's accomplishments in the area of the violin and of composition. That doesn't change the fact that things often seem quite different in a dream than they do in the light of day, I am sure you would agree.

As for spirituality, it is nice that you believe in extra-worldly forces, I am not at all surprised given your many previous posts here. I can tell you that I do not believe in all of that stuff - for me, there is a logical and reasonable explanation for everything, even if we haven't yet found an explanation. Hundreds of years ago, it was accepted that the Earth was the flat and the sun revolved around our planet. Just because we do not yet have an explanation, it does not mean that we will never have one.

Sort of getting off topic here...anyway, the actual "Devil's Trill" is not the greatest piece of music ever written by any means and I think that there are violin pieces that require a hell of a lot more virtuosity - for example, many of the pieces written by Paganini.

[Preston]

I am aware of Tartini's accomplishments in the area of the violin and of composition. That doesn't change the fact that things often seem quite different in a dream than they do in the light of day, I am sure you would agree.

As for spirituality, it is nice that you believe in extra-worldly forces, I am not at all surprised given your many previous posts here. I can tell you that I do not believe in all of that stuff - for me, there is a logical and reasonable explanation for everything, even if we haven't yet found an explanation. Hundreds of years ago, it was accepted that the Earth was the flat and the sun revolved around our planet. Just because we do not yet have an explanation, it does not mean that we will never have one.

Sort of getting off topic here...anyway, the actual "Devil's Trill" is not the greatest piece of music ever written by any means and I think that there are violin pieces that require a hell of a lot more virtuosity - for example, many of the pieces written by Paganini.

Yes, I agree that dreams are very different, but when I wake up I can tell what is right and wrong and I know what happened if I remember it.

I do almost believe there is a scientific explanation or some other answer for almost everything, I would say everything but I do not know enough about that, and there are things that I seriously question if there really is a scientific or logical explanation for them.

But... if there is a great divine I do not feel that it wants us to know it is there, fully. At least not yet. There are great spiritual phenomena in the world, in my opinion. That doesn't mean there is a great spirit though, but it is interesting to note that there are these spiritual phenomena and it is like looking into another world, I find that very interesting.

Yes, I agree that there are definitely violin pieces that require more virtuosity. But keep in mind that was the point Tartini was trying to make, that he couldn't write anything near what the Devil played.

[Peter]

Yes, I agree that there are definitely violin pieces that require more virtuosity. But keep in mind that was the point Tartini was trying to make, that he couldn't write anything near what the Devil played.

Honestly I have to say it really is mumbo-jumbo - do you really believe that even if such a thing as the devil exists that he is a violin virtuoso and writes great music? I'm sorry Preston but I've never come across anyone taking this Devil's trill sonata as literally as you! Schumann in his delirium believed the angels were dictating music to him, then they turned into devils and tormented him - I think if Tartini really believed this then in today's world he would be on anti-psychotics.

[Preston]

Honestly I have to say it really is mumbo-jumbo - do you really believe that even if such a thing as the devil exists that he is a violin virtuoso and writes great music? I'm sorry Preston but I've never come across anyone taking this Devil's trill sonata as literally as you! Schumann in his delirium believed the angels were dictating music to him, then they turned into devils and tormented him - I think if Tartini really believed this then in today's world he would be on anti-psychotics.

Keep in mind that most people who believe in The Bible believe in the Devil. I don't think if Tartini believed that a Devil came to him in his dream and played him a song that he would be on medicine. I am not trying to sound to serious, but I do believe that Tartini's dream may be true and I find it fascinating.

I feel that if the Devil did exist he would be very smart, sneaky, and deceitful.

I was talking to the pastor of a church not long ago, he is my neighbor. He takes The Bible very serious and he literally believes that Jesus will soon return to Earth, when all the countries turn against Israel. That is what the Bible says. I don't believe it. So also, keep in mind that people take these things pretty serious.

[HaydnFan]

Schumann in his delirium believed the angels were dictating music to him, then they turned into devils and tormented him

Interesting, I didn't know that one. I have heard that Schumann believed that the dead Schubert spoke to him and told him what music to write...have you heard this?

[Preston]

Interesting, I didn't know that one. I have heard that Schumann believed that the dead Schubert spoke to him and told him what music to write...have you heard this?

I have not studied on Schumann so I didn't know that either. I think Schumann probably thought a lot of bizarre things from what I have read.

[HaydnFan]

Yes, from what I understand, insanity ran in Schumann's family.

[Preston]

Yes, from what I understand, insanity ran in Schumann's family.

Sadly...

[susanwen]

I've heard also that Johannes Brahms wrote music from a state of trance.

[Michael]

I vaguely remember reading somewhere (or maybe I dreamt it) that certain themes came to Beethoven in his dreams. Considering that the man ate, drank and breathed music, this should not be too surprising.
If I did read it, I bet it was in something by Maynard Solomon.

Michael

I'm replying to myself here which is an odd sensation. I have located the essay called "The Dreams of Beethoven" and it was indeed by Maynard Solomon. Four dreams are "analysed" and one of them did produce some music. Beethoven describes it himself in a letter, written from Baden, to Tobias Haslinger, September 1821:

"Yesterday, as I found myself in the carriage on the way to Vienna, I was overcome by sleep, all the more so, since I scarcely ever (on account of the early rising here) have had a proper sleep. While thus slumbering, I dreamed I was taking a very long journey, as far even as Syria, as far even as India, back again, as far even as Arabia; finally I came, indeed, to Jerusalem. The Holy City prompted thoughts of Holy Scripture, and small wonder that the man Tobias occurred to me, and naturally that our little Tobias and the pertobiasser should enter my mind; now during my dream journey the followng Canon came to me:

(Music notation is given which seems to be in the bass clef, and the words "O To-bi-as Do-mi-nus, Ha-----s lin-ger, O! O! To-bi-as!")

"But I had scarcely awakened when away went the Canon and nothing of it would come back to my memory. But when next day I was on my way hither in the same conveyance (that of a poor Austrian musician), while awake, the dream journey went on, and behold, according to the law of association of ideas, the same Canon came back to me. Now fully awake, I held it fast, as once Menelaus did Proteus, only allowing it just to change itself into three voices."

All 36 seconds of this dream composition can be found in Vol 18 of the CBE.
Now, does anyone know what a "pertobiasser" is?

Michael

[Preston]

That is very interesting information Michael, thank you.

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

"Yesterday, as I found myself in the carriage on the way to Vienna, I was overcome by sleep, all the more so, since I scarcely ever (on account of the early rising here) have had a proper sleep. While thus slumbering, I dreamed I was taking a very long journey, as far even as Syria, as far even as India, back again, as far even as Arabia; finally I came, indeed, to Jerusalem. The Holy City prompted thoughts of Holy Scripture, and small wonder that the man Tobias occurred to me, and naturally that our little Tobias and the pertobiasser should enter my mind; now during my dream journey the followng Canon came to me:

Solomon's ignorance of basic German phrases is as funny as it is embarrassing. In the first sentence he mixes up the word 'befinden' with 'finden'. Beethoven's 'wieder zurück nicht weniger nach arabien' cannot be translated with 'as far even[sic!] as Arabia'. The word 'pertobiasser' is just a mistake. It does not appear in Beethoven's letter (Bonn, BH 23). Beethoven wrote 'das pertobiassen' - a verbal noun. Solomon duly misinterpreted it as the plural of a regular noun, making it look as if Beethoven was referring to persons called 'pertobiasser'. What kind of weird scholarship is this?

By the way, the sketch of this canon in Beethoven's sketchbook Artaria 197 (Berlin, Staatsbibliothek) and an entry in another pocket sketchbook (Paris, Bibliothèque Nationale, Ms. 51 Nr. 3, Ms. 99 und Ms. 80) prove that this canon was not a spontaneous idea.

[Michael]

Solomon's ignorance of basic German phrases is as funny as it is embarrassing. In the first sentence he mixes up the word 'befinden' with 'finden'. Beethoven's 'wieder zurück nicht weniger nach arabien' cannot be translated with 'as far even[sic!] as Arabia'. The word 'pertobiasser' is just a mistake. It does not appear in Beethoven's letter (Bonn, BH 23). Beethoven wrote 'das pertobiassen' - a verbal noun. Solomon duly misinterpreted it as the plural of a regular noun, making it look as if Beethoven was referring to persons called 'pertobiasser'. What kind of weird scholarship is this?

By the way, the sketch of this canon in Beethoven's sketchbook Artaria 197 (Berlin, Staatsbibliothek) and an entry in another pocket sketchbook (Paris, Bibliothèque Nationale, Ms. 51 Nr. 3, Ms. 99 und Ms. 80) prove that this canon was not a spontaneous idea.

Thanks, Cetto. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to the correct translation of the "Arabian" quote and the verbal noun "das pertobiassen"?

Michael

[Preston]

I feel that I should probably say this. If I was forced to choose between their being a great divine or great spirit than I would choose that there is.