Palestrina!

[Joy]

Well, we are currently looking for a new director of music, so perhaps we will see some changes to that effect soon.

That really does make a difference. Our organist relocated and we have a new organist who went to a music university in Wisconsin. Luckily he is very good!
At Christmas our choir and music director put together a selection from Handle's Messiah and they were so good they could have recorded it and sold the CD. Very professional.

[Preston]

In 1818 he wrote 'In order to write true church music go through all the plainchants of the monks.'

Is there anymore information regarding Beethoven and monks that anyone could share? Maybe his thoughts towards monks, his thoughts towards ancient music, how far back, as in time period, he looked into ancient chants of the monks (if it was before AD or after), anything like that would be great.

Also, can anyone recommend a recording of ancient monk chants that are before AD?

[Frankli]

In the last weeks I was introduced to an altogether new dimension of music to me. So far music had it's beginning for me with Handel and Bach and now somebody gave me this "Missa Papae Marcelli" from Palestrina from around 1560!

http://www.amazon.com/Allegri-Misere...e=UTF8&s=music

I think I never heard such transcendent and heavenly music as this - both regarding the composition and the interpretation, especially the Sanctus and Agnus Dei. Only Beethoven's "Incarnatus est" from op. 123 and the slow movement from op. 132 comes close to that. Again and again I listen to it now with my MP3 player.

Does anybody know whether Beethoven knew Palestrina? Didn't he study the old masters when composing the Missa solemnis?

Gerd

Fux (1660-1741) was called "der Österreichischer Palestrina" and not for nothing: he was much influenced by the Italian master, and advocated his style. He wrote a treatise on counterpoint "Gradus ad Parnassum".
Albrechtsberger (1736-1809), one of Beethoven's early teachers, partly based his own treatise "Gründliche Anweisung zur Komposition" on Fux's.
Indirectly he passed Palestrina's knowledge of counterpoint to Beethoven.

You talk of "transcendental music", and I agree on your examples in op. 123 and 132.
I find Palestrina, as well as Lasso and Morales, hard to grasp, but at moments, following the text, I recognize something of the mysticism like in Beethoven's MS.

[HaydnFan]

Also, can anyone recommend a recording of ancient monk chants that are before AD?

What do you mean before AD? Do you mean before A.D. as in BCE?

There were obviously no Christian chants because the religion did not exist yet. Are you looking for Ancient Roman or Greek or Egyptian music?

[Preston]

What do you mean before AD? Do you mean before A.D. as in BCE?

There were obviously no Christian chants because the religion did not exist yet. Are you looking for Ancient Roman or Greek or Egyptian music?

Thanks, I mean before Christ, B.C. I am not looking for Christian or Gregorian chants, that is one reason I asked for B.C. The other is I would like to try and see if I can make any sense of ancient chants when compared to present day chants, and I do mean try because that would be quite the process I think and my musical skills are very limited.

I was looking for really any type of monk chants that are very ancient (B.C.), as far back as the existence of monks go. Just something to get me started looking into this. I do not know the exact type I am looking for, I guess any would do, to start with, because I do not know enough about the history of spirituality.

I hardly know much about monk chants but am fascinated by them. So I would like to start my search into looking into the theory, etc. around those forms of music, and just listen to them.

I don't know if what I wrote makes all that much sense but I tried to make sense of it.

[Peter]

Thanks, I mean before Christ, B.C. I am not looking for Christian or Gregorian chants, that is one reason I asked for B.C. The other is I would like to try and see if I can make any sense of ancient chants when compared to present day chants, and I do mean try because that would be quite the process I think and my musical skills are very limited.

I was looking for really any type of monk chants that are very ancient (B.C.), as far back as the existence of monks go. Just something to get me started looking into this. I do not know the exact type I am looking for, I guess any would do, to start with, because I do not know enough about the history of spirituality.

I hardly know much about monk chants but am fascinated by them. So I would like to start my search into looking into the theory, etc. around those forms of music, and just listen to them.

I don't know if what I wrote makes all that much sense but I tried to make sense of it.

There is great controversy surrounding the actual realisations of ancient music as they had a completely different system of notation, intervals, tuning - in the case of the oldest known notated music, the Hurrian Hymn (1400BC) found in Urgarit, Syria it was written in cuneform. Most surviving ancient music is from Greece such as the Delphic Hymns 138 BC and the Seikilos Epitaph. Gregorian chant or more accurately Carolingian chant incorporates elements of the lost Gallican and Roman chant (5th-9th centuries AD). Some of the hymns and chant melodies from the Hebrews (passed on by oral tradition) and Byzantium may also have permeated through into the later chants. You really will not get much further back than Gregorian chant which developed around 750AD from a synthesis of Roman and Gallican chant probably in France.

[Joy]

Preston, here's some sites which may help you,

A look into the Tibetian chants;
http://www.fourgates.com/musictibetanchants.asp

Gregorian chant CD's;
http://www.amazon.com/Gregorian-Chan.../dp/B000001VIR

A history of the Gregorian chants;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_chant

[Preston]

There is great controversy surrounding the actual realisations of ancient music as they had a completely different system of notation, intervals, tuning - in the case of the oldest known notated music, the Hurrian Hymn (1400BC) found in Urgarit, Syria it was written in cuneform. Most surviving ancient music is from Greece such as the Delphic Hymns 138 BC and the Seikilos Epitaph. Gregorian chant or more accurately Carolingian chant incorporates elements of the lost Gallican and Roman chant (5th-9th centuries AD). Some of the hymns and chant melodies from the Hebrews (passed on by oral tradition) and Byzantium may also have permeated through into the later chants. You really will not get much further back than Gregorian chant which developed around 750AD from a synthesis of Roman and Gallican chant probably in France.

Thank you Peter. That is excellent information. It gives me a starting place into looking into this music. If the Hurrian Hymn is the oldest known notated music and it was introduced in 1400 BC then there must be a good bit of notated music to follow it, I would imagine, but I see your point about most of the ancient music that has survived was formed in Greece.

I still can't believe the information you told me, it is astounding. I do imagine that the middle east would be an excellent place to start looking into this.

Does anyone have any information on Beethoven, Bach, Handel, etc. dealing with monks or ancient chants?

Also, thank you Joy for the links.

[Peter]

Thank you Peter. That is excellent information. It gives me a starting place into looking into this music. If the Hurrian Hymn is the oldest known notated music and it was introduced in 1400 BC then there must be a good bit of notated music to follow it, I would imagine, but I see your point about most of the ancient music that has survived was formed in Greece.

I still can't believe the information you told me, it is astounding. I do imagine that the middle east would be an excellent place to start looking into this.

Does anyone have any information on Beethoven, Bach, Handel, etc. dealing with monks or ancient chants?

Also, thank you Joy for the links.

There is hardly any music surviving from this ancient period, even from Greece I think only around 50 pieces, from Ancient Egypt, nothing - however as I have mentioned realisation of such music remains highly controversial because of the difficulties in interpreting the notation. They may have used microtones, there was probably a great deal of improvisation and much was passed on (and subsequently lost) by oral tradition. The Hurrian hymn itself is highly controversial with a version by Professor Kilmer in the 1970s suggesting use of harmony centuries before it was thought possible - other realisations of this piece bear no resemblance to the Kilmer version.

If you search on Amazon you will find cds of ancient music but all you're getting is a modern impression of what it may have sounded like, not a definitive version. Beethoven became interested in plainchant whilst composing the Missa Solemnis and it was Gregorian (Carolingian) chant that he was concerned with.

[Joy]

Our Church plays Gregorian chants quite often and I really enjoy them, most relaxing and peaceful.

Also last week Palestrina's "Gloria patri" was performed.

[susanwen]

The Teaching Company's wonderful audiobooks on tape or CD are available at my library. Dr. Robert Greenberg's "How to Listen to Great Music" included a segment about Palestrina, as one of the cornerstones of music.

I just returned the course about Stravinsky, who is one of my favorite composers. Alas, I only listened to two of the four cassettes - I'm hoping to borrow that one again soon.

- Susan

[HaydnFan]

As Peter says, I doubt many composers from Bach and later would have had any encounters with ancient music (ie. before Gregorian / Carolingian chant). Gregorian chant however, would have been a regular part of the mass. Sections were often sung in chant and many composers use these familiar themes in their works. (Ex. the "Dies Irae" theme heard in Mahler's Symphony No. 2, Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique, and Liszt's "Totentanz" to name a few)

[Joy]

The Teaching Company's wonderful audiobooks on tape or CD are available at my library. Dr. Robert Greenberg's "How to Listen to Great Music" included a segment about Palestrina, as one of the cornerstones of music.

I just returned the course about Stravinsky, who is one of my favorite composers. Alas, I only listened to two of the four cassettes - I'm hoping to borrow that one again soon.

- Susan

Susan, do you listen to those tapes too! Aren't they wonderful learning tools?! Professor Greenberg is just fantastic! What a great teacher! I have so many on video and have been watching them for several years now. Last week for my birthday I was treated to a Beethoven concert at the Phoenix Symphony, Beethoven's 7th, and I got out the videos of 'Beethoven's Symphonies' and watched the 7th again. It makes me enjoy the concert so much more when watching these tapes before I go. Next month I will be going to a Beethoven's 5th symphony concert and will watch the tape of that aslo before going.

For anyone who might be interested in these learning tools, here's the place to go, just click 'Fine Arts and Music' on the left hand side,
http://www.teach12.com/teach12.asp?ai=16281

[susanwen]

I don't own any, I borrow them from the library. Of their music tapes, I liked the Beethoven Symphonies set and the Stravinsky set. I had a set of Beethoven's Piano Concertoes, but there was something wrong with my cd player for a while, and then I just didn't listen to them and brought them back when they were due. I'll get them again next time they're on the shelf. Yes, I really like Dr. Greenberg, he really brings the stories to life.

[Joy]

I don't own any, I borrow them from the library. Of their music tapes, I liked the Beethoven Symphonies set and the Stravinsky set. I had a set of Beethoven's Piano Concertoes, but there was something wrong with my cd player for a while, and then I just didn't listen to them and brought them back when they were due. I'll get them again next time they're on the shelf. Yes, I really like Dr. Greenberg, he really brings the stories to life.

I own Beethoven's Piano Sonatas, Concertos, & his Symphonies also 'Beethoven His Life and Music". Also own 'The Symphony' (in general) and 'How to Listen to and Understand Great Music'. All first rate!