The real first piano concerto

[Peter]

Visit the Rare Beethoven page on this site for info on this piece and an mp3 of the 3rd movement.
http://www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/selected.html

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 06-22-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Visit the Rare Beethoven page on this site for info on this piece and an mp3 of the 3rd movement.
http://www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/selected.html

I can mention here Peter why, on reflection, I thought the 3rd movement was the best option. I don't know how familiar you are with the music, but I feel the Rondo has the least amount of orchestral input from Hess, being a rather more straight-forward piece than the other two in this respect. I just think the Rondo is probably more closer to the original than the others.

The conductor of this recording (David Montgomery with the Jena Philharmonic Orch. Arte Nova label, Cat no. 74321 43312 2) doubts it's even Beethoven's, but I'm persuaded by the date of the piece's composition - comming before the 3 piano quartets, but after the Electoral sonatas. WoO4 bears some resemblance to the style of the sonatas (and borrows a passage from one of them) but the piano style is not yet quite as sophisticated as is found in the later piano quartets. If the attributed time of composition had been any later, I myself would doubt the authenticity of the work.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

I don't have a recording of this piece but I recall hearing it a while back. Interesting to hear that the authenticity is not 100% assured, I was of the opinion that there was no doubt! The hand-writing is presumably B's or is that also uncertain? I am pretty convinced this is genuine B.
In the notes you provided for this which I have used, you say that Beethoven was not familiar with Mozart's music at this time. Yet only a year later he certainly was familiar with Mozart when he wrote the piano quartets. The influence of Mozart in this concerto is quite apparent to my ears.

Thanks for the label details, I have added those.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 06-22-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't have a recording of this piece but I recall hearing it a while back. Interesting to hear that the authenticity is not 100% assured, I was of the opinion that there was no doubt! The hand-writing is presumably B's or is that also doubtful?
Thanks for the label details, I have added those.

I have not read anything that suggests the handwriting is not B's. The conductor even suggests that WoO4 may have been a copy made by B of someone else's concerto! But also the quite basic orchestral scoring is typical of the young Beethoven. I have listened to another early concerto piece attributed to B whose scoring is well in advance of what B had produced at the time in question and on this ground alone the work could not be deemed authentic, although in this case the piece was also totally unBeethovenian musically as well (not that this stopped many scholars attributing the piece as B's!!). But if you have heard the Electoral sonatas the style of WoO4 is very similar. Usually one can tell fairly quickly if a piece by Beethoven is authentic or not.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

In the notes you provided for this which I have used, you say that Beethoven was not familiar with Mozart's music at this time. Yet only a year later he certainly was familiar with Mozart when he wrote the piano quartets. The influence of Mozart in this concerto is quite apparent to my ears.

The style of WoO4 is consistant with his earliest compositions. However I suggest that this style was not totally unique to Mozart in those days. B must have been exposed to all manner of music in Bonn. You mention the quartets as being in particular influenced by M, yet the style of these quartets is totally different from that of the concerto. So i suggest the two styles are unlikely to be the result of the same level of influence. The quartets are an impressive advance on all of B's music I have heard composed prior to these works. Or perhaps conversely B was more influenced by M in the Concerto and (despite what you have said) less in the quartets, B's own personal style becomming more developed in this case? I'm not too clued-up on the topic of B's early influences.

PS: regarding the point of authenticity, there is a passage in the Rondo that sounds remarkably similar to that found in one of the Violin Romances. Have you noticed this connection yet?
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-22-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-22-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
The style of WoO4 is consistant with his earliest compositions. However I suggest that this style was not totally unique to Mozart in those days. B must have been exposed to all manner of music in Bonn. You mention the quartets as being in particular influenced by M, yet the style of these quartets is totally different from that of the concerto. So i suggest the two styles are unlikely to be the result of the same level of influence. The quartets are an impressive advance on all of B's music I have heard composed prior to these works. Or perhaps conversely B was more influenced by M in the Concerto and (despite what you have said) less in the quartets, B's own personal style becomming more developed in this case? I'm not too clued-up on the topic of B's early influences.

PS: regarding the point of authenticity, there is a passage in the Rondo that sounds remarkably similar to that found in one of the Violin Romances. Have you noticed this connection yet?

Apparantly one of the earliest influences on B were Neefe's songs. Getting back to Mozart, the piano quartets were modelled on M's Violin sonatas K.296 & 376-80, so B was definitely familiar with some of Mozart's music in 1785. There are other notable influences in the quartets such as C.P.E.Bach. Whilst it's true that B was exposed to many influences during his Bonn years, in the field of the piano concerto there wasn't much to go on, except J.C.Bach and Mozart. Since we know that Maximilian Franz was a great Mozart fan, it does seem possible to me at least that B may have heard a Mozart piano concerto prior to composing WoO4 although I have read elsewhere that this was not the case - how anyone can say for certain that B was familiar with Mozart in 1785 but not 1784 is beyond me!
I haven't noticed the connection with the romances, could you be more specific?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

I haven't noticed the connection with the romances, could you be more specific?

The passage begins at 4.45mins into the track.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Michael]

I always thought there was no doubt about the authenticity of this concerto. It also would appear to have had less tampering with than other, uncompleted works.
According to my sleeve notes the manuscript is handwritten by B but unsigned and has corrections by the composer.
The manuscript shows the part of the solo instrument in its entirety, together with a piano transcription of the orchestral intermissions. If this is so, all Hess did was orchestrate the intermissions - not compose them.
On a more scholarly note, has anyone noticed the resemblance of the main rondo theme to a tune from "Calamity Jane"?

Michael

[Michael]

I've looked up a couple of other sources about this concerto and they seem to contradict the information given above, which was taken from the sleeve notes to a recording on the Vox label.
The others state that only the piano part, with ORCHESTRAL CUES survives. One of these sources is the Beethoven Compendium, which is usually correct.
So it would seem that Willy Hess had a bigger input into WoO4 than I thought.

Michael

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
I've looked up a couple of other sources about this concerto and they seem to contradict the information given above, which was taken from the sleeve notes to a recording on the Vox label.
The others state that only the piano part, with ORCHESTRAL CUES survives. One of these sources is the Beethoven Compendium, which is usually correct.
So it would seem that Willy Hess had a bigger input into WoO4 than I thought.

Michael

The issue is confusing unless someone here has actually seen the score in question. For all of the other concertos B composed a continuo for the piano during the orchestral passages that is never played today. I thus assume B may have done the same with WoO4 and thus this is a little more to work with than just an orchestral cue.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin