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Immortal again!

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    Immortal again!

    Members of the forum will be aware that it is my view that Solomon's theories concerning the Immortal beloved and her identity are not correct. One of his main arguments hinged on Beethoven's remarks in 1816 that five years earlier he had met the great love of his life. As part of his research, Thayer had in 1872 requested through the American consul in Frankfurt a written statement from the then head of the Brentano family as to when Antonie first came to know Beethoven (Antonie had by then died). Thayer published the statement verbatim in German. It clearly states that Beethoven was acquainted with Antonie and her husband and children before Antonie moved from Frankfurt to Vienna to care for her father in 1809. By way of further confirmation of the Brentano family statement, Thayer quoted a further communication to him directly from the American consul and independent of the family statement, which read as follows: “I ascertained that [Antonie’s father] was a friend of Beethoven, that Beethoven was very often in the [father’s] house, and that the acquaintance of [Antonie] with [Beethoven] began before her marriage to Mr. Brentano [in 1798]."

    Solomon disregarded this evidence suggesting Thayer was wrong and made his own translation to imply Beethoven only met Antonie in 1810.

    In the 1840 edition of his biography of Beethoven, Schindler stated that Antonie had first met Beethoven in the company of Bettina in 1810 as claimed by Solomon. In a later edition (1860), Schindler, who had since moved to Frankfurt near to where Antonie then lived, and who had presumably interviewed her or members of her family, retracted his earlier statement, and stated that Antonie had known Beethoven since a child in the house of her father. Solomon simply stated that Schindler was “mistaken”.
    'Man know thyself'

    #2
    You make a convincing case! Thanks for this interesting post.
    - Susan

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Peter View Post
      [...] my view that Solomon's theories concerning the Immortal beloved and her identity are not correct [...] In the 1840 edition of his biography of Beethoven, Schindler stated that [...]
      I´ve been listening to LvB´s music since childhood, but just recently began to read books about it.

      To what extent you think one can believe Schindler´s book, since it´s said he forged or destroyed proofs?

      About Solomon´s, I´ve read mixed reports. Some say it´s wonderful, some that it´s dreadful. I couldn´t put my hands on it yet. What do you think?

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Raptured View Post
        I´ve been listening to LvB´s music since childhood, but just recently began to read books about it.

        To what extent you think one can believe Schindler´s book, since it´s said he forged or destroyed proofs?

        About Solomon´s, I´ve read mixed reports. Some say it´s wonderful, some that it´s dreadful. I couldn´t put my hands on it yet. What do you think?
        Schindler wished to portray himself as a close friend and confidant of Beethoven and he even had a card printed which he presented to people after Beethoven's death saying 'L'ami de Beethoven'. So to this end he forged entries in the conversation books, destroyed many others and painted a picture of a much longer association with Beethoven than was the case. They met briefly in 1814 but their closer association actually dates from the period 1822-24 and the first few months of 1827 - in total a period of no more than 2 years. He also smeared the reputations of all Beethoven's close relatives, especially his nephew Karl. So Schindler's biography should only be read in an edited edition. It certainly contains a lot of useful information but must be treated with caution.

        Regarding Solomon, he adopts a psychological approach which I think is very misleading. I think Thayer/Forbes, Robbins-Landon or Cooper are much safer bets.
        'Man know thyself'

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Peter View Post
          Regarding Solomon, he adopts a psychological approach which I think is very misleading. I think Thayer/Forbes, Robbins-Landon or Cooper are much safer bets.
          Solomon's biggest problem is his ignorance of the German language. He doesn't even present a correct translation of the letter to the IB. Most of his psychological musings are based on glaring mistranslations of the sources.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff View Post
            Solomon's biggest problem is his ignorance of the German language. He doesn't even present a correct translation of the letter to the IB. Most of his psychological musings are based on glaring mistranslations of the sources.
            Encouraging to know you agree about this Cetto. I confess to an ignorance of the language myself but just logic alone tells me he can't be correct about Brentano.
            'Man know thyself'

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Peter View Post
              Encouraging to know you agree about this Cetto. I confess to an ignorance of the language myself but just logic alone tells me he can't be correct about Brentano.
              An amateur musicologist, who translates Beethoven's sentence 'mit mir und dir rede ich, mache, daß ich mit Dir leben kann' with 'I will arrange it [sic] with you and me that I can live with you', is not to be trusted.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff View Post
                An amateur musicologist, who translates Beethoven's sentence 'mit mir und dir rede ich, mache, daß ich mit Dir leben kann' with 'I will arrange it [sic] with you and me that I can live with you', is not to be trusted.
                Could you provide the correct translation?
                'Man know thyself'

                Comment


                  #9
                  The Schindler book I have access is "Beethoven as I knew him", edited by Donald W. MacArdle, English translation by Constance S. Jolly, 1996. Is it a good edition?

                  The music library considered to buy Solomon´s, but there were doubts. Anyway, for now it´s out of market here. They´re after Lockwood´s "Beethoven: music and life", which, it´s said, is pretty good. Even if he agrees with Solomon, or so it seems.

                  Thanks a lot to Peter and Cetto for the explanations!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Peter View Post
                    Could you provide the correct translation?
                    With fatal results Solomon ignores the comma. Beethoven wrote: 'I speak to you and myself, make it (possible) that I can live with you'.

                    The only possible explanation is that Antonie was supposed to get a divorce. Utterly unthinkable.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff View Post
                      With fatal results Solomon ignores the comma. Beethoven wrote: 'I speak to you and myself, make it (possible) that I can live with you'.

                      The only possible explanation is that Antonie was supposed to get a divorce. Utterly unthinkable.
                      Absolutely unthinkable - aside from Beethoven's personal views on the sanctity of marriage, the nature of his relationship with Antonie and her husband Franz was one of true friendship. In any case surely under Austrian law a divorce would not have been granted and Beethoven would have been fully aware of this?

                      Do you have any further ideas on who the lady may have been?
                      'Man know thyself'

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Raptured View Post
                        The Schindler book I have access is "Beethoven as I knew him", edited by Donald W. MacArdle, English translation by Constance S. Jolly, 1996. Is it a good edition?

                        The music library considered to buy Solomon´s, but there were doubts. Anyway, for now it´s out of market here. They´re after Lockwood´s "Beethoven: music and life", which, it´s said, is pretty good. Even if he agrees with Solomon, or so it seems.

                        Thanks a lot to Peter and Cetto for the explanations!
                        I haven't read MacArdle's Schindler edition but I would have thought it would be ok. Most English speaking scholars seem to accept Solomon's findings without question, but as Cetto has shown this is not the case in the rest of Europe.
                        'Man know thyself'

                        Comment


                          #13
                          As Fidelio told me, it is interesting to note that Beethoven wrote the letter on Monday July 6th. Monday, July 6 only fell on the dates 1795, 1801, 1807, 1812 and 1818.

                          Also, I am about to read a chapter in a book called "The Immortal Beloved", it looks at Solomon's theory and Thayer's, so it may be of some help. I will post what it says if it says anything worth of note.

                          Preston
                          Last edited by Preston; 01-25-2007, 08:02 PM.
                          - I hope, or I could not live. - written by H.G. Wells

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Isn't the general consensus the year 1812? And why is that?
                            'Truth and beauty joined'

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Joy View Post
                              Isn't the general consensus the year 1812? And why is that?
                              Beethoven wrote the letter on paper that he only used in 1812 (watermark SG 337 and 357). It is proven by all documentary sources that Beethoven arrived in Teplitz on 5 July 1812. Beethoven had himself registered in the Teplitz 'Anzeigs-Protocoll' on 7 July 1812. The Oberpostamtszeitung of Prague notes Beethoven's departure on 4 July 1812. The dating is also corroberated by Count Esterhàzy's trip to Teplitz which Beethoven refers to in the letter.

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