Beethoven and Key Relationships

[Joy]

Originally posted by PDG:
He also once referred to some fellow's shirt collar as being "as black as D flat". I would describe the Spring Sonata as serene - the first movement esp. makes nonsense of the theory that Beethoven was not a great melodist; Schubert would have been proud to have written it!

I have read, more than once, that LvB's favourite key was E flat, the bold new key of the 19th century.

And I have read in a few books that c minor was his favourite key. I wish all the authors would get their facts straight.
Joy

[PDG]

Originally posted by Joy:
And I have read in a few books that c minor was his favourite key. I wish all the authors would get their facts straight.
Joy

I think that E flat & C minor were both his favourite key! If he were composing in major, he preferred E flat, but if he were writing in minor, the related E flat major key is C minor, rather than E flat minor. E flat minor is an unusual key, but, coincidentally, is the key of the 2nd movement of the currently featured "obscure work", WoO 36 no.1.

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PDG (Peter)

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
In the context you are discussing, I would say Handel wrote 20 'peerless' tunes for every Schubert's 1... and H's were better! I'm rarely impressed with anything of S's work. Outside his songs (of which even these I quickly tire of), his other stuff comes across to me as confused and very poorly constructed, and lacking in good musical ideas. Cumbersome use of 'rhetorical' gestrure (presumably his attempt to accommodate a little Beethovenianism) that come across as superficial melodrama. Much of his music to me sounds 'disturbed', for want of a better word.

Well, okay Rod, you prefer Handel. I prefer Schubert. I don't think that it makes much sense trying to compare them as their eras, instruments, styles & overall circumstances were so different. Handel & Bach? Maybe. But Handel & Schubert? No. You probably have me at a disadvantage in that you know more Schubert than I know Handel, but to my ears, Schubert had a way with melody that puts him on a different plane to any other composer in this respect, & my comment was about melody. Not harmony or structure or orchestration or counterpoint or anything else.

I am baffled that you hear a lack of good musical ideas in Schubert, & that he sounds confused & disturbed(!) to you. Do you know the late quartets & piano sonatas? Frankly, I don't understand how anyone who loves Beethoven could have such little time for Schubert.

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PDG (Peter)

[Serge]

First off, Peter, thanks for all that history on keys, no kidding. I am fascinated by keys and their relationships but can't ever find simple, Cliff's-Notes style edification on said topic. If you have anything more, let us pick your brain.

So, did Ludwig ever compose anything specifically in B-minor?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Serge:


So, did Ludwig ever compose anything specifically in B-minor?

When B was arranging the Funeral march from Op.26 as no.4 of Leonore Prohaska (WoO96) he transposed it from Ab minor to B minor and amongst sketches of the time are the words, "B minor Black tonality".
The Bagatelle Op.126 no.4 is also in B minor.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
I am baffled that you hear a lack of good musical ideas in Schubert, & that he sounds confused & disturbed(!) to you. Do you know the late quartets & piano sonatas? Frankly, I don't understand how anyone who loves Beethoven could have such little time for Schubert.

I've tried before to convert Rod to the joys of Schubert, but failed miserably!
I agree with your comments PDG, particularly when one considers that gem, Schubert's last piano sonata in Bb. The songs are in a class of their own and comparison with Handel as you say is fruitless. If we compare Handel's Operas, Oratorios and concerti with Schubert, of course H wins hands down. I suspect if we compare Handel's Oratorios with Beethoven's, even Rod will concede Handel is the winner!

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by PDG:
I think that E flat & C minor were both his favourite key! If he were composing in major, he preferred E flat, but if he were writing in minor, the related E flat major key is C minor, rather than E flat minor. E flat minor is an unusual key, but, coincidentally, is the key of the 2nd movement of the currently featured "obscure work", WoO 36 no.1.

Oops. Didn't know that, PDG. Thanks for clearing that up. That just goes to show you how much I know (or don't).
Joy

[Serge]

I think it's something to marvel that out of the hundreds and hundreds of indiv. works Ludwig wrote only one was in B minor (the other simply a transposition, I gather). Even if he considered it a black key, one wonders if he never had the inspiration to make more out of it than one small bagatelle.

Are there any other keys that B. used very seldom? Can anyone name examples? I have this suspicion that B rarely used the key of G sharp...

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
...I suspect if we compare Handel's Oratorios with Beethoven's, even Rod will concede Handel is the winner!

It is difficult to compare B's one Oratario with H's as though they are works of the same genre. H's efforts were typically at least 3 times as long as B's, whose style in Christus is more that of a cantata by comparison.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Originally posted by Serge:
I think it's something to marvel that out of the hundreds and hundreds of indiv. works Ludwig wrote only one was in B minor (the other simply a transposition, I gather). Even if he considered it a black key, one wonders if he never had the inspiration to make more out of it than one small bagatelle.
Are there any other keys that B. used very seldom? Can anyone name examples? I have this suspicion that B rarely used the key of G sharp...

Beethoven considered G sharp to be a "bright" key. One example of his use of it which comes to mind is in Fidelio, during the part where Pizarro tells Rocco of his plot to kill Florestan.

Beethoven may have been shy with B minor, but Mozart was moreso; out of his 600+ works, he wrote only one in this key: Adagio in B minor, K.540.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
It is difficult to compare B's one Oratario with H's as though they are works of the same genre. H's efforts were typically at least 3 times as long as B's, whose style in Christus is more that of a cantata by comparison.

My point exactly, and a comparison between Handel arias and Schubert songs is equally unrealistic.



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
My point exactly, and a comparison between Handel arias and Schubert songs is equally unrealistic.

I disagree, the point of discussion was the relative quality of the sung melodies, not the genres per se. Personally, I think too much is made of these songs by Schubert.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I disagree, the point of discussion was the relative quality of the sung melodies, not the genres per se. Personally, I think too much is made of these songs by Schubert.

Likewise I disagree. My original point was about the lyrical nature of Schubert compared to the more motivic themes of Beethoven. Even the most ardent Beethovian would have a job demonstrating the superiority of Beethoven's songs over Schubert's. The sketchbooks alone bare this out, with even his simplest settings taking pages of working outs. Perhaps that's why you refuse to recognise Schubert's achievement as a composer, as it is the one genre where he really does have the edge over Beethoven. That is not to belittle Beethoven's songs, as many are very fine, but they are not on the same level of consistency that is found with the Symphonies, sonatas and quartets, where B really is the undisputed master.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 06-19-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Likewise I disagree. My original point was about the lyrical nature of Schubert compared to the more motivic themes of Beethoven. Even the most ardent Beethovian would have a job demonstrating the superiority of Beethoven's songs over Schubert's. The sketchbooks alone bare this out, with even his simplest settings taking pages of working outs. Perhaps that's why you refuse to recognise Schubert's achievement as a composer, as it is the one genre where he really does have the edge over Beethoven. That is not to belittle Beethoven's songs, as many are very fine, but they are not on the same level of consistency that is found with the Symphonies, sonatas and quartets, where B really is the undisputed master.

The words to most of B's songs are not of an overtly serious and/or developed nature, and I think he had the good taste not to make a mountain out of a molehill. B's more developed songs are at the very least as good as Schubert's as far as I am concerned. If by some chance of fantasy Beethoven had suddenly developed a taste for composing larger numbers of songs of a more serious nature, perhaps in competition with Schubert, I have no doubt whatsoever that B could have easily mopped the floor with the younger man, as he does in every other genre of music. Never doubt Beethoven's potential. All of B's sonatas are not of the same 'nature' either (I assume you would use the word 'consistancy' here?). Songs are ok, but there is other music to be written.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
The words to most of B's songs are not of an overtly serious and/or developed nature, and I think he had the good taste not to make a mountain out of a molehill. B's more developed songs are at the very least as good as Schubert's as far as I am concerned. If by some chance of fantasy Beethoven had suddenly developed a taste for composing larger numbers of songs of a more serious nature, perhaps in competition with Schubert, I have no doubt whatsoever that B could have easily mopped the floor with the younger man, as he does in every other genre of music. Never doubt Beethoven's potential. All of B's sonatas are not of the same 'nature' either (I assume you would use the word 'consistancy' here?). Songs are ok, but there is other music to be written.

Well I don't totally disagree here - but regarding my original point that S was a more natural lyrical composer than B you have hardly produced a valid argument. We have debated the relative worths of herr Mozart and Schubert ad infinitum, and neither one of us has shifted our position one iota - what puzzles me is why you see it as some sort of competition? - I've made my position quite clear on many occasions -overall, Beethoven in my opinion was the supreme master, but that does not mean that all other music aside from Handel and AC/DC should be dismissed!
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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 06-21-2001).]