Beethoven and Key Relationships

[Jeff]

Can anyone help me find information on what keys Beethoven related to specific "moods"?

I know he believed that certain keys evoked certain moods, I just need to find a list of them,

Thanks,
Jeff

[Peter]

Originally posted by Jeff:
Can anyone help me find information on what keys Beethoven related to specific "moods"?

I know he believed that certain keys evoked certain moods, I just need to find a list of them,

Thanks,
Jeff

That's a very interesting question Jeff and one that also fascinated B.

I think he regarded B minor as one of the darkest keys of all - you only have to look at Schubert's Unfinished and Tchaikovsky's Pathetique as examples - it is rare in Beethoven. I don't have a complete list, so this is just off the top of my head - Eb major is usually seen as his heroic key and C minor the most dramatic. Ab always seems to evoke tenderness and E major, serenity.
If anyone does have a more complete list, I would also be very interested.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
That's a very interesting question Jeff and one that also fascinated B.

I think he regarded B minor as one of the darkest keys of all - you only have to look at Schubert's Unfinished and Tchaikovsky's Pathetique as examples - it is rare in Beethoven. I don't have a complete list, so this is just off the top of my head - Eb major is usually seen as his heroic key and C minor the most dramatic. Ab always seems to evoke tenderness and E major, serenity.
If anyone does have a more complete list, I would also be very interested.

Why is this, Peter? I mean, why do certain keys evoke certain emotions? I've heard of this before, it's true, but never quite understood how that happens? Why is Ab tender and C minor dramatic for example? This is very intriguing.
Joy

[Chris]

Originally posted by Joy:

Why is this, Peter? I mean, why do certain keys evoke certain emotions? I've heard of this before, it's true, but never quite understood how that happens? Why is Ab tender and C minor dramatic for example? This is very intriguing.
Joy

I think it had more to do with the tempering of the day than with the highness or lowness of it. Since tempering then was not equal, as it is today, different keys could very easily take on different moods. (If anyone doesn't know what I mean by that, I am saying that not every half step was exactly the same interval then.)

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:

Why is this, Peter? I mean, why do certain keys evoke certain emotions? I've heard of this before, it's true, but never quite understood how that happens? Why is Ab tender and C minor dramatic for example? This is very intriguing.
Joy

This is a difficult one Joy!

This goes back to the ancient modes which all have their own characteristic sound. When the major-minor scale system evolved out of these modes, the intervals within a scale were not always exactly the same - therefore keys still sounded very different. One of the main arguments in the 18th century against using equal temperament was that these differences would be lost - Musicians who valued these characteristics and spoke out against equal temperament included Johann Mattheson, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, and Johann Philipp Kirnberger. Kirnberger was even able to add the name of Johann Sebastian Bach to his cause through a testimonial by his son C.P.E.Bach, which contradicts the idea that Bach advocated equal temperament.
Certain keys such as C major and D major became associated with bright ceremonial music for the reason that they were the only keys trumpets could easily play in. Most classical orchestral music is in keys of no more than 3 sharps or 3 flats for the convenience of transposing instruments such as horns, clarinets etc , though Haydn experimented more than most with unusual keys during the Sturm und drang period of 1760/70.
Composers tended to associate certain keys with certain moods, so in Beethoven , his C minor music tends to be dramatic, Eb Heroic, Ab tender, E major Serene.
We also have to bear in mind that pitch has changed by as much as a semitone since Beethoven's time, so I think it is relative rather than definitive.

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'Man know thyself'

[Claudie MICAULT]

Wonderful explanation Peter... I have nothing to add !

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Claudie

[PDG]

I think that what's more interesting is LvB's use of key relationships within individual movements; for example, even as early as the sonata in A, op.2 no.2, the listening effect of the 1st mvt development going to A flat is stunning. I'm not so sure about specific keys meaning specific moods, though. The Finales of the 2nd & 9th Symphonies, both in D, are worlds apart in terms of mood. If E major is his key of serenity, then what about the Pastoral Symphony & Spring Sonata, both in F? Even with C minor, surely LvB preferred it over other minor keys because it is directly related to his favourite key, E flat?

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PDG:
I think that what's more interesting is LvB's use of key relationships within individual movements; for example, even as early as the sonata in A, op.2 no.2, the listening effect of the 1st mvt development going to A flat is stunning.

I agree - in the bagatelle Op.33 no.3 we get an anticipation of the 3rd movement of the Pastoral symphony when B plunges straight from F maj into D major - In the Waldstein Sonata the second subject goes to the mediant, not the dominant and this was to become typical of many later works.

I'm not so sure about specific keys meaning specific moods, though.

I don't think it is set in stone , i.e D=Joy etc.. but I don't think there is any doubt that composers associated certain keys with moods - B was interested in this topic and referred to B minor as a black, dark key.

The Finales of the 2nd & 9th Symphonies, both in D, are worlds apart in terms of mood.

I don't think they are worlds apart in the sense that both are full of joy even if expressed in different ways.


If E major is his key of serenity, then what about the Pastoral Symphony & Spring Sonata, both in F? Even with C minor, surely LvB preferred it over other minor keys because it is directly related to his favourite key, E flat?

I wouldn't really use the word serene to describe those works, more warm and sunny. Interesting that you picked them as I think they are similar in mood!
I haven't done a tally of the keys B uses to be certain that he did prefer either Eb or Cmin!


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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

He also once referred to some fellow's shirt collar as being "as black as D flat". I would describe the Spring Sonata as serene - the first movement esp. makes nonsense of the theory that Beethoven was not a great melodist; Schubert would have been proud to have written it!

I have read, more than once, that LvB's favourite key was E flat, the bold new key of the 19th century.

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
He also once referred to some fellow's shirt collar as being "as black as D flat". I would describe the Spring Sonata as serene - the first movement esp. makes nonsense of the theory that Beethoven was not a great melodist; Schubert would have been proud to have written it!

I have read, more than once, that LvB's favourite key was E flat, the bold new key of the 19th century.

I don't doubt you have read that, but I don't recall it in Beethoven's own words. Why is Eb the new key of the 19th century? - this surely stems from associating it with the Eroica, but it was used just as frequently by Mozart or Haydn - in fact 2 of their greatest symphonies are in that key - H's 103 and M's 39. Mozart also used it in the Magic flute - the number 3 being siginificant for Masons, hence the choice of Eb with 3 flats.

I agree with your comments about the Spring sonata (and there are plenty of other examples of wonderful B melodies), but the fact remains that on the whole B was not a naturally lyrical composer in the same vain as Schubert - if you look at the sketches for the songs, you'll see they caused B more trouble than anything else, whereas S would dash of a couple of songs in a day.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

I agree with you, Peter (sounds like I'm talking to myself when I say that). There's no doubt that Beethoven stamped his authority on the key of E flat with the Eroica; it's certainly not a "bright" key - too many flats - but our boy ate it up (along with C minor) nonetheless.

I agree about Schubert. He suffered in that because he was such an exquisite melodist, equally strong development of his themes was nigh-on impossible in sonata-form structure, the net result being that while his tunes are peerless in all classical music (yes, I know what I just said), his finished compositions don't have the weightiness of LvB's due to the comparative exhaustion of the idea before development occurs. You have called Schubert a bridge to the Romantics, but I'm not so sure; I believe that the man was simply blessed with the unbearably cumbersome gift of pure melody, in a Vienna looking for "another Beethoven".

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:

I agree about Schubert. He suffered in that because he was such an exquisite melodist, equally strong development of his themes was nigh-on impossible in sonata-form structure, the net result being that while his tunes are peerless in all classical music (yes, I know what I just said), his finished compositions don't have the weightiness of LvB's due to the comparative exhaustion of the idea before development occurs. You have called Schubert a bridge to the Romantics, but I'm not so sure; I believe that the man was simply blessed with the unbearably cumbersome gift of pure melody, in a Vienna looking for "another Beethoven".

I don't think Vienna could cope with the Beethoven it already had, let alone another one! You're absolutely right to point out the downside to Schubert's melodic genius - Tchaikovsky suffered with the same problem and was fully aware of it himself. I still maintain that Schubert was more of a bridge to the early Romantics than Beethoven.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:

that while his tunes are peerless in all classical music

In the context you are discussing, I would say Handel wrote 20 'peerless' tunes for every Schubert's 1... and H's were better! I'm rarely impressed with anything of S's work. Outside his songs (of which even these I quickly tire of), his other stuff comes across to me as confused and very poorly constructed, and lacking in good musical ideas. Cumbersome use of 'rhetorical' gestrure (presumably his attempt to accommodate a little Beethovenianism) that come across as superficial melodrama. Much of his music to me sounds 'disturbed', for want of a better word.




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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chris:
I think it had more to do with the tempering of the day than with the highness or lowness of it. Since tempering then was not equal, as it is today, different keys could very easily take on different moods. (If anyone doesn't know what I mean by that, I am saying that not every half step was exactly the same interval then.)

Thanks, Chris. I get what you mean. That explains a lot.
Joy

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
This is a difficult one Joy!

This goes back to the ancient modes which all have their own characteristic sound. When the major-minor scale system evolved out of these modes, the intervals within a scale were not always exactly the same - therefore keys still sounded very different. One of the main arguments in the 18th century against using equal temperament was that these differences would be lost - Musicians who valued these characteristics and spoke out against equal temperament included Johann Mattheson, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, and Johann Philipp Kirnberger. Kirnberger was even able to add the name of Johann Sebastian Bach to his cause through a testimonial by his son C.P.E.Bach, which contradicts the idea that Bach advocated equal temperament.
Certain keys such as C major and D major became associated with bright ceremonial music for the reason that they were the only keys trumpets could easily play in. Most classical orchestral music is in keys of no more than 3 sharps or 3 flats for the convenience of transposing instruments such as horns, clarinets etc , though Haydn experimented more than most with unusual keys during the Sturm und drang period of 1760/70.
Composers tended to associate certain keys with certain moods, so in Beethoven , his C minor music tends to be dramatic, Eb Heroic, Ab tender, E major Serene.
We also have to bear in mind that pitch has changed by as much as a semitone since Beethoven's time, so I think it is relative rather than definitive.

Difficult for me, easy for you, Peter. Thanks for the indepth explaination. I really learn a lot from you. Very interesting. I knew that the pitch had changed by as much as a semitone in the last couple of hundred years, but had not known that some musicians had spoken out and that there was such an arguement going on between them. Thanks for the history lesson.
Joy

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 06-16-2001).]