Beethoven and his 2 brothers: 2 questions

[stout]

What was Beethoven's opinion of his 2 Brothers Carl and Johann? Were they these 2 people that pretty much followed Beethoven around getting money from him-were they in layman's terms "pain in the arse"?


Regards

Stout

[Peter]

I think he was probably more attached to them than is widely believed, particularly in the case of Carl who was also a musician and had assisted Beethoven in the early 1800's. After the death of his mother he had played a large part in their upbringing and perhaps it was this parental role he adopted that lead to the many rows he had with them in later years, particularly over their choice of wives - interesting that he was seriously against both their marriages. Beethoven certainly had a temper and violent quarrels were not uncommon - usually followed by passionate reconciliations.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think he was probably more attached to them than is widely believed, particularly in the case of Carl who was also a musician and had assisted Beethoven in the early 1800's. After the death of his mother he had played a large part in their upbringing and perhaps it was this parental role he adopted that lead to the many rows he had with them in later years, particularly over their choice of wives - interesting that he was seriously against both their marriages. Beethoven certainly had a temper and violent quarrels were not uncommon - usually followed by passionate reconciliations.

I wonder if Beethoven was so against both his brother's choice of wives and marriages perhaps out of jealousy because he really wanted to be married and have a family?
Joy

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:

I wonder if Beethoven was so against both his brother's choice of wives and marriages perhaps out of jealousy because he really wanted to be married and have a family?
Joy

I think that is a possibility Joy, though I think Beethoven was probably subconsciously jealous and justified his objections with all sorts of other reasons. Had Beethoven lived another 5 or so years, he would have witnessed the marriage of his nephew Karl to karoline Naske - his reaction to that would have been interesting!

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think that is a possibility Joy, though I think Beethoven was probably subconsciously jealous and justified his objections with all sorts of other reasons. Had Beethoven lived another 5 or so years, he would have witnessed the marriage of his nephew Karl to karoline Naske - his reaction to that would have been interesting!

You're right there. Interesting indeed. I wonder if and how he would have objected to that one?!? Subconsciously or consciously jealous we may never know. He did seem to justify his actions regarding this though.
It sure seemed to 'get in his craw' if you know what I mean. He was really bothered by it throughout his life.
Joy

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:

You're right there. Interesting indeed. I wonder if and how he would have objected to that one?!? Subconsciously or consciously jealous we may never know. He did seem to justify his actions regarding this though.
It sure seemed to 'get in his craw' if you know what I mean. He was really bothered by it throughout his life.
Joy

Why Beethoven reacted to his sisters in law the way he did is rather bizarre - even if he had good grounds for disapproving of them, surely he should have put his brothers' happiness above his own prejudices? He did the same of course to karl and his mother. One redeeming and surprising action considering the bitterness between them was B helping Johanna financially in the 1820's.

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'Man know thyself'

[Immortal Beloved]

Originally posted by Joy:

I wonder if Beethoven was so against both his brother's choice of wives and marriages perhaps out of jealousy because he really wanted to be married and have a family?
Joy

He is kind of against them, but I don't think it's not that he really wanted to be married... I'm guessing it's something else.

[Claudie MICAULT]

Personnally I do think that B. beeing the oldest, and responsible at 17 of his two brothers, kept a kind of "RIGHT" to advise them... And as his own feelings were most for women of aristocracy, maybe he dreamed of "good" marriages for his brothers and was deluded by their choices....He acted like a father with his brothers, as he did after with his nephew Karl. But the guys were already grown up and resisting....

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Claudie

[Peter]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
But the guys were already grown up and resisting....

Beethoven may have (in his own words) "been forced to become a philosopher at an early age" - but he was no psychologist! I think Beethoven tended to see things in black or white - it was either right or wrong in his eyes and understanding another person's point of view wasn't part of his makeup - Just an observation!

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'Man know thyself'

[Claudie MICAULT]

Yes, I think you are right Peter : this is also a typical particularity in flemish character (I am flemish, born at 50 km from Brugge... and I lived two years in Gent....)They (flemish... and I, french but from 3/4 flemish origins) react in a very "épidermique" way to situations we don't like, but are able to "over"scuse ourselves if we have made an error. There is a good book from Ernest CLOSSON (in french), a flemish writer, "L'ELEMENT FLAMAND DANS BEETHOVEN" (The flemish element in Beethoven) were those theories are well developped.

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Claudie

[Peter]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
Yes, I think you are right Peter : this is also a typical particularity in flemish character (I am flemish, born at 50 km from Brugge... and I lived two years in Gent....)They (flemish... and I, french but from 3/4 flemish origins) react in a very "épidermique" way to situations we don't like, but are able to "over"scuse ourselves if we have made an error. There is a good book from Ernest CLOSSON (in french), a flemish writer, "L'ELEMENT FLAMAND DANS BEETHOVEN" (The flemish element in Beethoven) were those theories are well developped.

That's very interesting Claudie - nice for you to know you share similar origins to Beethoven!

Of course much of B's behaviour can be explained by his personal sufferings which naturally made him a far more irritable and perhaps less tolerant man than he otherwise would have been. I have no doubt that in his dealings with both brothers and his nephew, he truly believed he was acting in their best interests.



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'Man know thyself'

[NickB]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
(I am flemish, born at 50 km from Brugge... and I lived two years in Gent....)

Brugge is utterly beautiful. We took an 11 day holiday in Brugge in Nov 1999, staying in Hotel Salvator and a loft flat on Ridderstraat. We visited Gent one day, the kerk and Kasteel Gravensteen, as well as the Hangman's Noose(?) cafe and Cafe Hopduvel.

(Also day-trips to Ieper & Poperinge, Antwerp, Beersel (lambik bier), and Oostende.) Vlaams is a beautiful, peaceful, country with a proper approach to life! And the bier......too bad LVB didn't have Flemish beer available to him in Vienna.

While most cafe's we visited played classical music, I do not recall ANY Beethoven in any of them. Do the Flemish people not know that Beethoven was of Flemish ancestry???

Anyone with the interest and bandwidth to spare can view some mpg's I made of our trip to Brugge (to save bandwidth, they are sometimes fast-motion and compressed). Guess the soundtracks! http://www.beercapital.com/brugge.html http://www.beercapital.com/poperingeieper.html
(Cleveland Quartet)

Also our March 2001 trip to Holland: http://www.beercapital.com/wiechmann.html http://www.beercapital.com/muidenslot.html http://www.beercapital.com/naarden.html
(not all LVB soundtracks, sorry)

And while I'm at it, our never-ending garden work at home: http://www.beercapital.com/yard.html
(Cleveland Quartet)
And the view from one of our local hikes: http://www.beercapital.com/councilcrest.html
(Chicago/Solti & Ashkenazy)

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
That's very interesting Claudie - nice for you to know you share similar origins to Beethoven!

Of course much of B's behaviour can be explained by his personal sufferings which naturally made him a far more irritable and perhaps less tolerant man than he otherwise would have been. I have no doubt that in his dealings with both brothers and his nephew, he truly believed he was acting in their best interests.

I agree with you. Beethoven was a good man with a good heart but who wouldn't be impatient and irritable with all the health problems, deafness, not to mention even personal problems all his life. It's a wonder he could write such beautiful music after all. I guess that just goes to show you the human spirit can indure and he, indeed, had that.
Joy

[Claudie MICAULT]

Exactly I was born in COMINES (F), at 15 km from Ieper, near Poperinge etc, etc... At the beginning of the century, in Malines (Mechelen) the house of the B. family (ancesters) was always to see. But it is true that the flemishes doesnt forgive B. s grandfather his move to Bonn! Imagine just B. as THE belgian composer !!! The country would feel larger (and maybe also larger of spirit).
Anyway I will visit the sites you mention...

[Claudie MICAULT]

P.s. : each time we visit my parents we come back with belgian beers of any sorts. B.s is also known to have his beere in the evening when reading his newspaper...