Opus 132: 5 within 5 within 5...?

[euphony131]

Hello,

The first of the middle late string quartets, Opus 132 has got a way fascinating structure...

The 3rd mvt. fluctuates between the melody for "A Convalescent's Holy Song of Thanksgiving" and the melody for "Feeling Renewed Strength." So you have an ABABA format. There's the first Five. Then you have the fact that this is the first string quartet to have Five mvts. There's the second Five. Next you consider this quartet is part of five Late Quartets. There's your third Five. 5 within 5 within 5? Maybe another 5 I'm missing?

I don't want to sound like the number-obsessed character, Max Cohen in the movie, "Pi" but you have to admit this is pretty unusual stuff. Purely coincidental? Maybe. Or maybe it's part of even larger plan that B. mapped out but which we can't see? What do you think?

BTW, the way he smoothly bridged the 4th mvt. to the 5th mvt. reminds me a little of the seamless scherzo-to-finale transistion in the 5th symphony. Wait a minute! Is that the fourth Five?!

Wouldn't this stuff make a great movie?

What I love about the late quartets is that it affords mere mortals like us to glimpse the inner mind of the Master, his emotional/spiritual state. It's just that because they come from this transcedental place, they're not easily deciphered or understood. But I suppose that's what makes them so fascinating and timeless, yes?

[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 06-18-2001).]

[euphony131]

Say,

Maybe we need an ancillary website devoted to just the last five string quartets? After all just one of those quartets is like equal to 40 Mozart symphonies or a 100 by Haydn.

You could listen to any of those quartets like a thousand times and still take away something new. They're like inexhaustible fountains, so inexhaustible as to be almost daunting. And scarey. But in a good way. Did that make sense?

[PDG]

Euphony, I think you're reading too much into this! The ABABA format of the Hymn of Thanksgiving is too simplistic an assessment of this movement, but could be applied to hundreds of other movements. Also, op.132 was the 2nd Quartet of the last 5, not the 5th, so how does this fit into your grand plan theory?! Neither do I see much of a connection between the quartet & the 5th Symphony; this work gradually builds & builds towards the ever-looming last movement, whereas the quartet's March stops abruptly before the Finale appears from nowhere.

[Michael]

Originally posted by PDG:
Neither do I see much of a connection between the quartet & the 5th Symphony; this work gradually builds & builds towards the ever-looming last movement, whereas the quartet's March stops abruptly before the Finale appears from nowhere. [/B]

Where there is a similarity, of course, is with the Ninth Symphony. The instrumental recitatives that usher in the last movement of the quartet are very like those more famous ones in the symphony's finale. And the quartet's last movement was originally considered to be finale of the symphony.

Michael

[euphony131]

Originally posted by PDG:
Euphony, I think you're reading too much into this! The ABABA format of the Hymn of Thanksgiving is too simplistic an assessment of this movement, but could be applied to hundreds of other movements.

Ok, fair enough. Show me another late string quartet mvt. that exhibits this pattern.

QUOTE]Originally posted by PDG:
Also, op.132 was the 2nd Quartet of the last 5, not the 5th, so how does this fit into your grand plan theory?![/QUOTE]

I never said it was the 5th! I said it was PART of the last Five! Like duh, I know it's the 2nd one.

QUOTE]Originally posted by PDG:
Neither do I see much of a connection between the quartet & the 5th Symphony; this work gradually builds & builds towards the ever-looming last movement, whereas the quartet's March stops abruptly before the Finale appears from nowhere. [/QUOTE]

Well, I didn't mean to imply that they sounded the SAME -- obviously not. I just meant they way they were bridged seamlessly, the way the 4th mvt. seems to just merge into the 5th. But maybe this is totally subjective on my part and maybe I AM reading too much into it. But anyway, this is what I meant.

[Peter]

Originally posted by euphony131:
[B]

The first of the middle late string quartets, Opus 132 has got a way fascinating structure...

It gets more confusing when we realise Op.132 was originally planned in 4 movements. The Alla danza tedesca from Op.130 was originally intended for Op.132 and the slow movement theme of Op.135 was originally intended to conclude Op.131!

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by euphony131:
Well, I didn't mean to imply that they sounded the SAME -- obviously not. I just meant they way they were bridged seamlessly, the way the 4th mvt. seems to just merge into the 5th. But maybe this is totally subjective on my part and maybe I AM reading too much into it. But anyway, this is what I meant.

I didn't say that you had implied a similarity in sound between the two works. To my ears, the 3rd & 4th movements of the 5th Symphony are clearly linked by association, esp. since the Scherzo is recalled halfway through the Finale, whereas the 4th & 5th mvts of the quartet are distinct from one another with the March acting as a transition between the Hymn & the Finale. No?

On your other points, again I didn't say that you had said that op.132 was the 5th late quartet. I merely asked you that since it was the 2nd, how do you see this fact in relation to your 5 in 5 in 5, etc. thinking?

Your ABABA assessment of the great Hymn of op.132 is, perhaps, too simplistic because, for example, the second time the "Feeling of New Strength" appears, it is much longer & more elaborate than the first time. A better description might be ABAB(B)A (& we're not talking Swedish pop here).

Neither did I say that the ABAB(B)A format can be found elsewhere in the last 5 quartets - it was only feasible with the Hymn because of it's unique polyphonically harmonic flow, not possible in strict sonata-form structure or conventional quartet-writing technique.

Please read me more carefully next time.

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PDG (Peter)

[euphony131]

Originally posted by PDG:
To my ears, the 3rd & 4th movements of the 5th Symphony are clearly linked by association, esp. since the Scherzo is recalled halfway through the Finale, whereas the 4th & 5th mvts of the quartet are distinct from one another with the March acting as a transition between the Hymn & the Finale. No?

Yes and No. Yes, the two mvts are distinct from each other in the quartet. When did I ever say they weren't? As for the "March" -- you mentioned earlier that it ends "abruptly" then begins the finale (4th mvt.). This is not true. There's transistional passage AFTER the "March," one that B. marked "Piu allegro" and which is still part of the 4th mvt. THIS is what I'm talkin' about! This "bridge" into the 5th mvt., a seamless structure that recalls the seamless bridging in the 5th symphony...

As music scholar, Micheal Steinberg put it (parantheses are mine for clarification): "...we are jolted by the terse opening phrases of a march, full of unexpected turns and witticisms. Without a break, Beethoven moves from this into an impassioned operatic recitative (the Piu allegro) for the first violin. It's dying cadence is picked up by the second violin for the start of the febrile finale (5th mvt.)."

So yes, the "March" does end a little "abruptly" but it is NOT the transistion into the 5th mvt. Also, after the Piu allegro, the finale does not appear as you've stated: "out of nowhere." This is not a David Copperfield show. This is music, herculean music.

Originally posted by PDG:
On your other points, again I didn't say that you had said that op.132 was the 5th late quartet. I merely asked you that since it was the 2nd, how do you see this fact in relation to your 5 in 5 in 5, etc. thinking?

Simple, like I said: IT'S ONE OF A SET OF FIVE. Are we speaking the same lingo here? Are you, uh, getting this reception at all???

Originally posted by PDG:
Your ABABA assessment of the great Hymn of op.132 is, perhaps, too simplistic because, for example, the second time the "Feeling of New Strength" appears, it is much longer & more elaborate than the first time. A better description might be ABAB(B)A (& we're not talking Swedish pop here).

Yeah, yeah, it appears longer and more elaborate because no doubt B. was trying to illustrate an greater increase of strength. But that doesn't change the basic pattern. The motiff is the same, albeit more "elaborate." Or are you saying when it appears again that it's a TOTALLY DIFFERENT theme? In that case, maybe we're not listening to the same quartet here. What number do you have again?

Originally posted by PDG:
Neither did I say that the ABAB(B)A format can be found elsewhere in the last 5 quartets - it was only feasible with the Hymn because of it's unique polyphonically harmonic flow, not possible in strict sonata-form structure or conventional quartet-writing technique.

Exactly my point! It occurs only here! In this quartet that has Five mvts! That's what started my post to begin with and made me want to take a look at it! Duh.

Originally posted by PDG:
Please read me more carefully next time.

Please read yourself more carefully. :@
Actually, this stuff is way interesting. Don't take it the wrong way.


[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 06-19-2001).]

[Peter]

Now now boys - several points here. Firstly Euphony, the link passage you describe (actually piu allegro, presto, poco adagio) is totally different in effect to that in the 5th. Next PDG, Euphony is quite right to describe the structure of the 3rd movemnet as ABABA. I don't know where you get the extra B from, as the B section is exactly 53 bars long both times it appears. I don't see either why you say this structure is only feasable because of the polyphonic nature of the music - this is exactly the same structure of the scherzos to Symphonies 4&7.
Euphony is right to point out the connections between the quartets which occur naturally as Beethoven was working on them at the same time. However, there are links between the 5th symphony, 4th piano concerto and violin concerto - again works that Beethoven was engaged on at the same time - so I don't think these connections are any more siginicant with the quartets, not part of some great plan (in which you could include the early string trio Op.9 no 3 whose opening motive is an inversion of the grosse fugue theme!)

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 06-19-2001).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:

Now now boys - several points here. Firstly Euphony, the link passage you describe (actually piu allegro, presto, poco adagio) is totally different in effect to that in the 5th.

Of course it is. You may as well talk about the link passage between the adagio & rondo of the Emperor Concerto - there's ANOTHER 5. Euphony asked me what number Quartet I was listening to. Well, in opus number order, number 15. Hey, wait a minute; divide 15 by, shall we say, the number of syllables in BEE-THO-VEN, & you get YET ANOTHER 5. Amazing!

Next PDG, Euphony is quite right to describe the structure of the 3rd movemnet as ABABA. I don't know where you get the extra B from, as the B section is exactly 53 bars long both times it appears. I don't see either why you say this structure is only feasable because of the polyphonic nature of the music - this is exactly the same structure of the scherzos to Symphonies 4&7.

Sorry, I meant the Hymn itself, rather than the "Relief". The Hymn is lengthened on its subsequent appearances in the movement; so maybe ABA(A)B(A), would be more apt a description. This pattern is only possible in this mvt among the late quartets; no other could have lent itself to such treatment. I wasn't comparing the Quartets with other compositions. It's interesting that Euphony didn't challenge me on either of these points.

Euphony is right to point out the connections between the quartets which occur naturally as Beethoven was working on them at the same time. However, there are links between the 5th symphony, 4th piano concerto and violin concerto - again works that Beethoven was engaged on at the same time - so I don't think these connections are any more siginicant with the quartets, not part of some great plan (in which you could include the early string trio Op.9 no 3 whose opening motive is an inversion of the grosse fugue theme!)

I didn't question the connections between the quartets.

Peace in the neighbourhood.





[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 06-22-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
Sorry, I meant the Hymn itself, rather than the "Relief". The Hymn is lengthened on its subsequent appearances in the movement; so maybe ABA(A)B(A), would be more apt a description.

The main Hymn theme is only varied in subsequent appearances, the 2nd time it is virtually the same length of around 30 bars as the first time, and the final appearance only has a few extras bars by way of a codetta. I still think ABABA is a fair description of the form.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 06-19-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by euphony131:
Hello,


So you have an ABABA format. There's the first Five. Then you have the fact that this is the first string quartet to have Five mvts. There's the second Five. Next you consider this quartet is part of five Late Quartets. There's your third Five. 5 within 5 within 5? Maybe another 5 I'm missing?

I don't want to sound like the number-obsessed character, Max Cohen in the movie, "Pi" but you have to admit this is pretty unusual stuff. Purely coincidental? Maybe. Or maybe it's part of even larger plan that B. mapped out but which we can't see? What do you think?

Well you see I agree with your structural analysis of the 3rd movement of Op.132, but not with your numerical theory I'm afraid. It is possible to play the numbers game with anything - take the Eroica - 3rd Symphony in Eb (3 flats) written in 1803. 1st movement in 3 time. The 3rd of 9 symphonies (divisible by 3) etc... I rest my case!

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
The main Hymn theme is only varied in subsequent appearances, the 2nd time it is virtually the same length of around 30 bars as the first time, and the final appearance only has a few extras bars by way of a codetta. I still think ABABA is a fair description of the form.

Fair comment, but I still think that given the progressive extension & extra decoration afforded the main theme on its 2nd & 3rd appearances, AND Beethoven's instruction to play the Hymn "with intense feeling" third time around, means that ABABA is a tad too simplistic a description.

[euphony131]

Originally posted by PDG:
Sorry, I meant the Hymn itself, rather than the "Relief". The Hymn is lengthened on its subsequent appearances in the movement; so maybe ABA(A)B(A), would be more apt a description. This pattern is only possible in this mvt among the late quartets; no other could have lent itself to such treatment. I wasn't comparing the Quartets with other compositions. It's interesting that Euphony didn't challenge me on either of these points. Dare I say?......Duh?

OK, so shot me `cause I didn't catch your fib. But then again I wasn't the one pretending to be a vainglorious pedant. I only brought up something I thought might be intriguing. I wasn't trying to be some "moralcrusader" as your email address states. Yes, my ABABA assessment may be on the "simplistic" side, but I never said it was an all-encompassing doctrine, just a basic (basic is the word here) breakdown. You can get as pedantic as you want about it but it doesn't change the basic pattern. So take me to the gulliotine just because you made a mistake and I was foolish enough to go along and not correct your lame analysis...I've got better things to do. DUH! DUH! DUH! I quit.

Oh, and I am soooooooo sorry I even attempted to bring up something that might be even remotely interesting. I'll try and be as stale and pedantic and erroneous as possible next time so as to adhere to your own precepts. Or you and Rod like best buddies or what???

BTW, I read that the basic hymn melody is five phrases long. I suppose that's the fiveth FIVE? Whoopee!!! Hmmmm...five plus five equals PDG's I.Q.? Ahhhhhh...there's our connection. Wonderful. Everything's settled now. Goodnight.

[Peter]

We're getting a bit too personal here now, so back to Beethoven please. A discussion on the last quartets should be capable of producing more mature debate.

Serge mentioned the rarity of the G# min in Beethoven, and looking through these last quartets it does occur as the 6th movement of Op.131. What strikes me with these last quartets is the number of times B changed his original intentions, with movements planned for one quartet turning up later in another. Even the first of the last quartets Op.127 was originally planned as 6 movements, but turned out in conventional 4 movement format.

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'Man know thyself'