Mysterious Fugue Motto???

[euphony131]

Hi all,

I need help on what many have deemed the "Mysterious Fugue Motto" that's present in B's middle late string quartets: Op. 132, 130, 131. All I know is that if you take the keys of each of the mvts in Op. 131 then you see the fugue motto. But where is this motto located in the other two? What is the melody/theme I should be listening for?

While on the subject, it's amazing the symmetry involved with the last five string quartets. I mean key-wise you have: E (A,B,C) F. Movement-wise you have a "sandwich" of numbers: 4(5,6,7)4. Yes, I know Op. 130 also has an alternative finale but it's still six mvts either way. Does anyone care to elaborate on this? I can't believe this arrangement was totally unintentional on B's part. I don't want to get pedantic and talk about "metaphysical" meanings, but still...

I think it's amazing that one human being composed five of the greatest string quartets in just two years. Most of us are lucky to do ONE remotely beautiful thing in an entire life-time.

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by euphony131:
Hi all,

I need help on what many have deemed the "Mysterious Fugue Motto" that's present in B's middle late string quartets: Op. 132, 130, 131. All I know is that if you take the keys of each of the mvts in Op. 131 then you see the fugue motto. But where is this motto located in the other two? What is the melody/theme I should be listening for?


I think the motto theme you are referring to is the opening bars of the A minor Op.132, which is similar to the main subject of the grosse fugue. This theme also bears a strong resemblane to Bach's G minor fugue book 1(when transposed to the same key). There is also a strong thematic connection between Bach's 'musical offering' and the 1st and last movements of Op.131.


I think it's amazing that one human being composed five of the greatest string quartets in just two years. Most of us are lucky to do ONE remotely beautiful thing in an entire life-time.

Any of the last quartets would be amazing had they taken a lifetime to produce! Although most of the work was done within a 2 year period, sketches for the Eb date back to 1822. When it comes to producing great works in an amazingly short period of time, Mozart's last 3 Symphonies and Schubert's last 3 Piano sonatas written in 8 weeks are two supreme examples.

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'Man know thyself'

[euphony131]

Originally posted by Peter:

I think the motto theme you are referring to is the opening bars of the A minor Op.132, which is similar to the main subject of the grosse fugue.

Thanks Peter! Ah, yes, that gradual, awakening-type (spiritual awakening?) sound...yes, it is pratically same as in the Gross Fugue...

This theme also bears a strong resemblane to Bach's G minor fugue book 1(when transposed to the same key). There is also a strong thematic connection between Bach's 'musical offering' and the 1st and last movements of Op.131.

I always suspected Bach played a heavier influence on the Master than most people have thought. Looks like it's true. But tell me Peter, why is it B. himself didn't acknowledge more the likes of Bach? B. seems to have given most of his accolades to Handel.



[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 06-17-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by euphony131:
I always suspected Bach played a heavier influence on the Master than most people have thought. Looks like it's true. But tell me Peter, why is it B. himself didn't acknowledge more the likes of Bach? B. seems to have given most of his accolades to Handel.

I think Beethoven did acknowledge Bach who he referred to as the Immortal God of Harmony. He once said that his name should not be Bach (Brook) but Meer (Sea) - He wrote a canon on the name BACH (WoO 191) and even contemplated an Overture on the same BACH theme. That he revered Handel above all others, does not mean that he didn't hold composers such as Mozart and Bach in very high regard.

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'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

Opinion seems to be quite divided about the "ABC" quartets - that is the three middle ones of the last five. A lot of commentators see them as an interrelated group while others vehemently oppose this.
There is no denying that the opening themes of these three quartets are very similar to each other but Basil Lam has written:
"These facts ....do little more than exemplify the scarcely surprising truth, that a composer, who, as he said on various occasions, liked to occupy himself with several compositions at the same time, explored diverse aspects of a basic note-set that happened to interest him during those last few years of his life."
Then, again, I could quote somebody else arguing the exact opposite.

Michael

[euphony131]

Hi all again,

Can anyone recommend any good books devoted to the late string quartets and written for the layman, in other words, for a non-musician?

thanks.

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think Beethoven did acknowledge Bach who he referred to as the Immortal God of Harmony. He once said that his name should not be Bach (Brook) but Meer (Sea) - He wrote a canon on the name BACH (WoO 191) and even contemplated an Overture on the same BACH theme. That he revered Handel above all others, does not mean that he didn't hold composers such as Mozart and Bach in very high regard.

The comment by Beethoven that he could still learn from Handel was, after all, made on his death-bed. He may have been understandably delirious! Not to knock Handel, but other than this fever-induced comment, what other evidence is there to suggest that he rated GFH above Bach? Or Mozart? Or Cherubini?!? Who noted this comment about Handel, anyway?

I think it's worth stepping back from the argument for a moment, & thinking about this superman, knowing he was dying, hearing his idols' music in his head, unavoidably comparing his own place in history compared to them as he drew his last breaths..........Handel, Bach, Mozart, Schubert (if he'd known him). All roads lead to Rome. And all musical history sees Beethoven stand majestically above all his peers; he must have known it, with all his humility.

I just don't see Handel as being especially important in Beethoven's mindset, esp. as he lay dying, above any other composer for whom he had the utmost respect.

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
The comment by Beethoven that he could still learn from Handel was, after all, made on his death-bed. He may have been understandably delirious! Not to knock Handel, but other than this fever-induced comment, what other evidence is there to suggest that he rated GFH above Bach? Or Mozart? Or Cherubini?!? Who noted this comment about Handel, anyway?

I think it's worth stepping back from the argument for a moment, & thinking about this superman, knowing he was dying, hearing his idols' music in his head, unavoidably comparing his own place in history compared to them as he drew his last breaths..........Handel, Bach, Mozart, Schubert (if he'd known him). All roads lead to Rome. And all musical history sees Beethoven stand majestically above all his peers; he must have known it, with all his humility.

I just don't see Handel as being especially important in Beethoven's mindset, esp. as he lay dying, above any other composer for whom he had the utmost respect.

Well the evidence suggests Beethoven was of this opinion at least a decade before he was on his death-bed. In 1817 he told Cipriani Potter that he regarded Handel as the greatest. Other people who confirm this view were Schultz and Stumpff. As I said this doesn't mean that Bach and Mozart were far behind in his estimation.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Thanks - I didn't know this, although I think we're talking smidgeons of difference in admiration here; for example, Handel was the greatest but Bach was the greater harmonist? So, in Beethoven's eyes, Handel, as a composer, was only 2nd best (if that) in this writing area?

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
Thanks - I didn't know this, although I think we're talking smidgeons of difference in admiration here; for example, Handel was the greatest but Bach was the greater harmonist? So, in Beethoven's eyes, Handel, as a composer, was only 2nd best (if that) in this writing area?

Well yes at this level of greatness I would say it's virtually impossible to say one is greater than the other - they are different, but supreme in their own way. Beethoven obviously thought Handel had the edge over the others, but people's tastes change (up until 1805, he rated Mozart the highest) and I think one reason for B's enthusiasm (particularly at the end) was that much of Handel was unknown to him and when confronted with these masterpieces for the first time he perhaps felt he could learn from this music, in a way he no longer could from Bach and Mozart. After all the Beethoven of the 1820's was a different man and composer from the 1790's and Handel was probably more relevant to his later style.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Forgive my whimsy, but had Beethoven lived another couple of years, he may have felt that Schubert was the greatest!!

[dice45]

Originally posted by euphony131:
Hi all again,

Can anyone recommend any good books devoted to the late string quartets and written for the layman, in other words, for a non-musician?

thanks.

Hello euphony131,

Sorry, I cannot give a book recommendation.

I can recommend a recording:
try to get your hands on a re-issue (CD or vinyl) of the Budapest String Quartet playing on the instruments of the US Congress Library (recording from the mid fifties). Original ID codes: ML-4583 to ML-4587, also available as box set SET-174.

and then: just listen!

Greets,
Bernhard

[Michael]

Originally posted by euphony131:
Hi all again,

Can anyone recommend any good books devoted to the late string quartets and written for the layman, in other words, for a non-musician?

thanks.

The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) brought out a series of inexpensive paperbacks some years ago. One of these was a survey of the Beethoven quartets by Basil Lam. It contains a lot of musical examples - so some degree of music literacy might be helpful (although I have managed without that). There were originally two paperbacks - the second one dealing with the late quartets, but the last time I saw this publication in a bookshop (about four years ago) it had been reduced to one volume - but still quite cheap.
You might try Amazon or similar suppliers. Enquire under BBC Publications.

Michael

[Bob the Composer]

[quote]Originally posted by Peter:

Originally posted by euphony131:
Hi all,

I need help on what many have deemed the "Mysterious Fugue Motto" that's present in B's middle late string quartets: Op. 132, 130, 131. All I know is that if you take the keys of each of the mvts in Op. 131 then you see the fugue motto. But where is this motto located in the other two? What is the melody/theme I should be listening for?


I think the motto theme you are referring to is the opening bars of the A minor Op.132, which is similar to the main subject of the grosse fugue. This theme also bears a strong resemblane to Bach's G minor fugue book 1(when transposed to the same key). There is also a strong thematic connection between Bach's 'musical offering' and the 1st and last movements of Op.131.


I think it's amazing that one human being composed five of the greatest string quartets in just two years. Most of us are lucky to do ONE remotely beautiful thing in an entire life-time.

Any of the last quartets would be amazing had they taken a lifetime to produce! Although most of the work was done within a 2 year period, sketches for the Eb date back to 1822. When it comes to producing great works in an amazingly short period of time, Mozart's last 3 Symphonies and Schubert's last 3 Piano sonatas written in 8 weeks are two supreme examples.

I think there may also be a thematic connection between the opening of the first movement of Op. 132 and the "A" subject of the third movement of the same quartet. A little over a month ago I posted some thoughts on the quartet at the Beethoven forum at edepot.com. I commented a lot on the possible meaning of the quartet and such. I will post some of that here too at the earliest possible time.

Bob

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I am not a number, I am a free man!