Beethoven and Cherubini

[MartinB]

What are the French words from a Cherubini opera that John Eliot Gardiner quotes from and which Gardiner believes influenced the opening of Beethoven's 5th symphony?
I think John Eliot Gardiner also took part in a documentary about how songs from the French Revolution are used in this symphony. Is that correct?

[Peter]

I'm not certain of the words, but the Cherubini Operas that influenced Beethoven were Lodoiska Which opened in Vienna in March 1802 and especially Les Deux Journees. There are parallels with the overtures of these two composers as well, especially between Cherubini's Medee and Beethoven's Egmont.


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by MartinB:
What are the French words from a Cherubini opera that John Eliot Gardiner quotes from and which Gardiner believes influenced the opening of Beethoven's 5th symphony?
I think John Eliot Gardiner also took part in a documentary about how songs from the French Revolution are used in this symphony. Is that correct?

You are correct about the Gardiner documentary, but I have only heard of the revolutionary song being an influence, and not any Cherubini opera. I have heard the song in question and it has a reperated ascending 4 note passage similar to that in the first movement of the 5th. It is this passage (not particularly the words themselves) that G claims influenced B in the 5th. There is no hard evidence for the theory as far as I am aware. G just notes the similarity in the use of the 4 note motif.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-09-2001).]

[MartinB]

I have since found out that it was a Tony Knox film that John Eliot Gardiner did concerning the French Revolutionary influences on Beethoven 5, and it was a DGG promo CD for the John Eliot Gardiner box set of Beethoven Symphonies where John Eliot Gardiner talks of the Cherubini influence on the opening motive to Beethoven 5. Neither of which I have seen or heard. Has anyone come across these?

[Rod]

Originally posted by MartinB:
I have since found out that it was a Tony Knox film that John Eliot Gardiner did concerning the French Revolutionary influences on Beethoven 5, and it was a DGG promo CD for the John Eliot Gardiner box set of Beethoven Symphonies where John Eliot Gardiner talks of the Cherubini influence on the opening motive to Beethoven 5. Neither of which I have seen or heard. Has anyone come across these?

I have the CD in question, I listened to it only once as I was not particularly impressed by his efforts with the symphonies. I'll dig it out and give it another try. If he says anything interesting I'll report it here.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[MartinB]

I was also particularly unimpressed with the Beethoven symphonies as recorded by Gardiner.

[Claudie MICAULT]

I know personnally Gardiner... Well... he is a good businessman !