Duet for 2 Violins in A major, WoO 34

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well yes I'd agree with that, though I think Beethoven's model would probably have been the 18th century divertimento rather than the concerto grosso.

Maybe so (which is why I did not commit myself to saying what particular age!), but with op131 at least, the structure reminds me more of the Handelian model, with movements serving an introductary function to other movements - i for ii, iii for iv, v stands alone, vi for vii.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Beethoven's interest in earlier music is very evident in Op.131- the opening movement contains passages (e.g.canon episode)that were influenced by Renaissance music, Palestrina, Josquin and possibly earlier.We know that J.Sonnleithner was preparing an edition of Renaissance choral music (including 10 pieces by Josquin)at the time he was working on the libretto of 'Leonore' and must in all probability have shown these to Beethoven.

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'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

. Why the question of the missing finale ever arose is a mystery to me.

Rod


[/B][/QUOTE]
If my memory is correct, I think our old friend Schindler was the culprit here. He was supposed to have asked B why he didn't write a third movement and B replied that he didn't have time! It sounds like a true story because the joke is on Schindler.
Michael

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
. Why the question of the missing finale ever arose is a mystery to me.

Rod

If my memory is correct, I think our old friend Schindler was the culprit here. He was supposed to have asked B why he didn't write a third movement and B replied that he didn't have time! It sounds like a true story because the joke is on Schindler.
Michael

[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm aware of this story, but others have been fooled too. Have you not heard about the mysterious 'silent' finale, that exists only in the ether?

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Michael]

Well Chris it just goes to prove that rules are made to be broken - In the works of Haydn and Mozart this is very apparent as well, with plenty of examples of their non-conformity to sonata form.

Even in the very first of the Electoral Sonatas, written when B was only 12 or 13, you find him adapting sonata form to suit his material. In the first movement, the first subject is omitted altogether in the recapitulation. He instinctively knew that the form was not a blueprint that had to be slavishly followed.
Michael

[Chris]

Nor should it be. I just like finding patterns and so forth in music through the ages.

[Michael]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'm aware of this story, but others have been fooled too. Have you not heard about the mysterious 'silent' finale, that exists only in the ether?

Rod

No. What's that all about?

Michael

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
No. What's that all about?

Michael

I don't know the origins of this romantic idea, but I've heard it suggested on more than one occasion, from professionals who should know better. The idea is that such is the spirituality of the Arietta that Beethoven intented a sort of mystical silent finale - the silence is the music, the ultimate in peace and contemplation. Groovy! I have some sympathy with the idea (I must be getting soft), only it's just not correct, B was too down-to-Earth for that sort of thing.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Well I've never heard that one before - no doubt these 'professionals' probably say this mystical 3rd movement is Beethoven's greatest achievement - anticipating John Cage !!
The 2 movements are perfectly logical and a 3rd (even a silent one !) would distort the balance - the sonata to me is like a 2 way mirror - on one side the material world and on the other, the spiritual - they contrast each other perfectly ; Minor/Major , Sonata form/Variation, Turbulence/Serenity.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

Well I've never heard that one before - no doubt these 'professionals' probably say this mystical 3rd movement is Beethoven's greatest achievement - anticipating John Cage !!

The 2 movements are perfectly logical and a 3rd (even a silent one !) would distort the balance - the sonata to me is like a 2 way mirror - on one side the material world and on the other, the spiritual - they contrast each other perfectly ; Minor/Major , Sonata form/Variation, Turbulence/Serenity.

Please, don't bring the likes of Cage into this place of discernment!

The master-stroke in op111 is the way B's suddenly ends the 'Turbulant' allegro with 'Serenity', thus bonding these most contrasting movements in a most effective manner.

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Michael]

That mystical "silent finale" sounds like something from the likes of E T A Hoffmann. In his criticism of the Fifth Symphony, written during B's lifetime, he says things like: "... right to the very last chord, indeed for some moments after it, (the listener) will be unable to emerge from the magical spirit-realm where he has been surrounded by pain and pleasure .... etc."
That early Romantic sort of stuff sounds a bit laughable nowadays,(maybe the loss is ours), but I think B was pleased enough with Hoffmann's reviews.
Re John Cage and that infamous piece, "Four minutes and 33 Seconds or whatever"- I forget the name of it, was it Stravinsky who said, on hearing it, that he looked forward to pieces of major length from this composer?

Michael

P.S. Any ideas on the best recording of the Cage piece? The version I have is taken miles too fast and the soloists aren't very good!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Michael:

P.S. Any ideas on the best recording of the Cage piece? The version I have is taken miles too fast and the soloists aren't very good!

Actually that's quite an interesting point as absolute silence is virtually impossible to acheive (especially in today's world - and I'm probably more fortunate than most, living in the country, but we still get disturbed by cows mooing and church bells !!)
So I doubt that Cage can ever have had a satisfactory performance of his 'masterpiece' !!

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'Man know thyself'