beethoven music as symbolism in movies

[Higgins]

Hi everyone,

I need help in finding movies in which beethoven's music was used in some scenes. Thanks.

Higgins

[Susan]

Try the Naxos web site; I remember seeing their catalogue, and it listed movies that used classical pieces....'Clockwork Orange' comes to mind 'cause I'm an Anthony Burgess fan, but I know there are lots more.

[PDG]

Hmmm. Mr Holland's Opus comes to mind (Allegretto of Symphony 7). The Horse Whisperer (one of the cello sonatas), Picnic at Hanging Rock (Emperor Concerto), Dead Poets' Society (9th Symphony), Kalifornia (some of Symphony 8), & many more. But there's no Beethoven in Beethoven. Woof Woof!!

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PDG (Peter)

[Higgins]

Thanks for the info.

Higgins

[euphony131]

I'd pass on "Clockwork Orange" -- not because it's a lousy film, but because I don't think Nazis marching to the 9th symphony is exactly what B. had in mind when he thought of "Brotherhood." Plus there's all that violence the central character fantasies about and commits while listening to B. -- not the best place to start to get into the "symbolism" of B's music.

In fact, I can no longer stomach watching the movie because of how B's music is so bastardized. It's really a travesty. I know if I was a German I would be totally pissed off -- here you take the greatest thing that country has ever produced (Beethoven) and then compare it to the worst thing (Hitler) that country has ever produced. It's plain sick.

[euphony131]

Ok, here is follow-up to my last post and one that shows just how damaging are the movies that bastardize B's music. And believe it or not -- this REALLY happened!

Tonight, I was driving in my car, attempting to turn on a friend of a friend to some music by the Master. It was the turkish march from the 9th and the guy said he could not listen to it without thinking about Clockwork Orange and the violent "droogies"! So I immediately switched that CD to B's 5th and then he tells me how it reminds him of the disco beat from the film, "Saturdaynight Fever" -- the one that samples bits of the 5th as background music. Good grief! So I then started to plug in a mvt from the 7th and the guy was going on about how he "saw" Beethoven in the film, "Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure" and that was what he kept envisioning. Well, at that point I just quit and shut my system off, too exasperated to try anymore, and these two guys in my car just guffawing and hee-hawing about how "funny" the music was. Jesus Krist! All I could do was fume, clench my teeth and silently curse Hollywood. There's the danger of movies for ya!

[~Leslie]

Sounds like yr pals would have been happier belting out Queens "Bohemian Rhapsody" at the top of their lungs. ~#:0

Movie associations aside, when it comes to Beethoven, and his message, timing is everything.

Try for a more intimate serious setting to turn yr friends on to the master.~

[euphony131]

Originally posted by ~Leslie:

Try for a more intimate serious setting to turn yr friends on to the master.~

I don't think setting would make a difference. Once people associate a certain type of music with a certain type of movie -- it's hopeless, it becomes like a soundtrack for them. Can you listen to the Star Wars theme without thinking about Star Wars? Same deal. And very sad.

In fact, I feel so bitter and repelled by the whole episode that I think it's impossible to try and turn on a vast majority of people to the Master due to the influx of Hollywood/media brain-washing. I quit. Never again. NEVER.

[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 05-28-2001).]

[MCS]

Really, euphony, I think the damage to CM caused by movies is slight compared to that perpetrated by TV and radio ads. Do you know what kids here call LvB's 'Ode to Joy'? It's the "Drink milk, love life" song, thanks to an ubiquitous ad campaign from several years ago. The opening notes of the 5th have been used in all manner of vile attempts to sell products as has the Halleluja Chorus from the Messiah. I didn't have the pleasure of seeing any of the three movies you mentioned, but there's no escaping ads.
(The most unusual one I can remember seeing is one from many years ago for a puffed breakfast cereal. The commercial featured soldiers in vaguely 19th cent. uniforms shooting copious amounts of cereal out of a cannon whilst a chorus sang "It's the cereal that's shot from guns!", accompanied by the strains of, what else, Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture...Of course, there are those who will say it's as much as that piece deserves...)
(And then there are the cartoons that have pilfered CM for their own, nefarious uses...Bugs Bunny's infamous "Rabbit of Seville" for instance, but that's another story...)

Mary

[Peter]

Originally posted by euphony131:

In fact, I feel so bitter and repelled by the whole episode that I think it's impossible to try and turn on a vast majority of people to the Master due to the influx of Hollywood/media brain-washing. I quit. Never again. NEVER.

I think you're right - the majority of people never will like Beethoven's music, so why not accept that and let them live with their loss! You can't force people to like any type of music, it is such a personal thing - if you try, you will only end up disappointed and frustrated. I got into Beethoven by myself aged 10 when I bought the 5th symphony and was hooked - no one pressured me in any way. There are plenty of people who do love Beethoven's music for me not to be bothered about the ones who don't.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Euphony, Leslie's right. Try & initiate your friends one by one, not en masse! Of course we associate the Star Wars theme with the Star Wars film.....that's where it came from!!!

Mary, I believe that those Warner Bros cartoons actually did a lot of good in promoting classical music for the young. Much like Fantasia.

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PDG (Peter)

[euphony131]

Everybody,

I'll have you know one of the guys that fateful evening in my car and the one who made those movie comparisions was none other than a history major and glee club devotee at "prestigious" Yale University. Just goes to show ya that education doesn't necessarily breed a sensitive soul. I never went to any kind of "prestigious" school, but, hell, at least I got Beethoven. So screw them! They can kiss my ass!

[PDG]

I'm not quite so pally with my friends that I'd let them do that to me!

[Jin]

Originally posted by PDG:
Mary, I believe that those Warner Bros cartoons actually did a lot of good in promoting classical music for the young. Much like Fantasia.

Most of Warner Bros' use of classical music has been tasteful, but I dislike Disney's presentation. For instance, they cut most of the 5th from Fantasia2000 and I find most of their graphics uninteresting. I did, however, like the full-length Dance Macabre set to a Hansel and Gretel storyline that I happened upon one Saturday morning. The music was nonetheless more memorable than the cartoon. The rabbit of Seville sequence meshed music and image while Disney tries to
"outdo" the music with imagery.

The only problem with associating any visual images to music is that for most people the visual is primary and the music is viewed as an augmentation of the images rather than something that stands alone.

[PDG]

I meant the original Fantasia. I've not seen Fantasia 2000, but I imagine I'd find it grotesque.