What are you listening to now?

[Joy]

Via radio Beethoven's Egmont Overture in F Minor, Op. 84. "Written to accompany a production of a play by Goethe, this is one of Beethoven's small orchestral gems."

[Burchest]

THe EROICA performed by Le Concert des Nations, Jordi Savall conducting. This performance is on period instruments and a much smaller orchestra than we are use to hearing the Eroica performed on. This is one of the most refreshing reditions of the Eroica I have heard in a long time. Excellent recording by Astree.

[Rutradelusasa]

THe EROICA performed by Le Concert des Nations, Jordi Savall conducting. This performance is on period instruments and a much smaller orchestra than we are use to hearing the Eroica performed on. This is one of the most refreshing reditions of the Eroica I have heard in a long time. Excellent recording by Astree.

I was listening to that just yesterday! Indeed an excellent recording.
I ordered the Grossman/Ensemble 28 recording saturday, btw. Must be arriving next friday. It's supposed to be Savall's to the extreme.

[Hofrat]

Via radio Beethoven's Egmont Overture in F Minor, Op. 84. "Written to accompany a production of a play by Goethe, this is one of Beethoven's small orchestral gems."

Here is a curiousity concerning this work. In order to obtain as many notes as possible from the horns in the Egmont Overture, Beethoven calls for one pair to be tuned in E-flat and the other in F. The E-flat horns are extremely useful in the main body of the overture, but in the F-major coda Beethoven is hard put to find notes for them to play.

[Peter]

THe EROICA performed by Le Concert des Nations, Jordi Savall conducting. This performance is on period instruments and a much smaller orchestra than we are use to hearing the Eroica performed on. This is one of the most refreshing reditions of the Eroica I have heard in a long time. Excellent recording by Astree.

Yes it is of great interest, but we must remember it is based on the forces used at the private Lobkowitz performance - at the public performance larger forces were used. Composers used what forces were available to them and this shouldn't always be considered the ideal.

[Joy]

Here is a curiousity concerning this work. In order to obtain as many notes as possible from the horns in the Egmont Overture, Beethoven calls for one pair to be tuned in E-flat and the other in F. The E-flat horns are extremely useful in the main body of the overture, but in the F-major coda Beethoven is hard put to find notes for them to play.

Thank you for that bit of information. Always glad to learn more!

[Hofrat]

Yes it is of great interest, but we must remember it is based on the forces used at the private Lobkowitz performance - at the public performance larger forces were used. Composers used what forces were available to them and this shouldn't always be considered the ideal.

Peter;

The Royal Court Orchestra of Vienna numbered 35 musicians in 1803. So a public performance would not necessarilly mean a larger orchestra at the time of Eroica.

[Rutradelusasa]

Yes it is of great interest, but we must remember it is based on the forces used at the private Lobkowitz performance - at the public performance larger forces were used. Composers used what forces were available to them and this shouldn't always be considered the ideal.

But Savall uses 47. The strings are 10/9/6/5/3, which isn't that small.

[Peter]

Peter;

The Royal Court Orchestra of Vienna numbered 35 musicians in 1803. So a public performance would not necessarilly mean a larger orchestra at the time of Eroica.

The strings traditionally formed the backbone of the orchestra, and the number of string players for a given performance in Beethoven's day depended on the amount of space and the numbers of players available. For the first private performance of the Eroica at Prince Lobkowitz's palace in 1804 a large string section would not have been possible. In fact for this performance there were only 3 first violins, 3 second violins, 2 violas, 2 cellos and 3 double basses. Compare that to Mozart's ideal - 40 Violins, 10 violas, 6celli, 10 double-basses and double wind on each part and it should be obvious that the numbers based on actual performances used as HIP are not necessarily those considered desirable by the composer.

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

The strings traditionally formed the backbone of the orchestra, and the number of string players for a given performance in Beethoven's day depended on the amount of space and the numbers of players available. For the first private performance of the Eroica at Prince Lobkowitz's palace in 1804 a large string section would not have been possible. In fact for this performance there were only 3 first violins, 3 second violins, 2 violas, 2 cellos and 3 double basses. Compare that to Mozart's ideal - 40 Violins, 10 violas, 6celli, 10 double-basses and double wind on each part and it should be obvious that the numbers based on actual performances used as HIP are not necessarily those considered desirable by the composer.

I thought the first private performance of the Eroica took place in Raudnitz castle. See Walther Brauneis: '...composta per festeggiare il sovvenire di un grand Uomo'. Beethovens 'Eroica' als Hommage des Fürsten Joseph Maximilian von Lobkowitz für Prinz Louis Ferdinand von Preussen, in: Jahrbuch des Vereins für Geschichte der Stadt Wien. (Vienna 1997).

[Peter]

The date I have is June 4th 1804 at the Lobkowitz palace when the earliest known try out of the symphony took place. Brauneis was referring to a performance at Eisenberg in August 1804. There were also other private performances in January 1805 at Lobkowitz's palace and the houses of Baron Andreas Fellner and Joseph Wurth.

From the BBC 4 film on the Eroica "Set over the course of a single day in June 1804, Eroica tells the story behind Beethoven's revolutionary Third Symphony. At the Viennese Palace of his patron, Prince Lobkowitz, Beethoven hears his music for the very first time."

[Burchest]

Yes it is of great interest, but we must remember it is based on the forces used at the private Lobkowitz performance - at the public performance larger forces were used. Composers used what forces were available to them and this shouldn't always be considered the ideal.

I agree with you Peter but one must also remember that the forces used today are lager than the forces used in Beethovens time. The symphony Orchestra in Vienna at the time of the 1st performance of the Eroica numbered about 35 members while the performance at the Lobkowwitz performance numbered 30. In reality there was not much of a difference. The Le Concert des rchestra has a total of 42 members, just how many Savall uses is not called out in the liner notes. To me, this performance with the Le Concert des Orchestra is as good if not better than any of the Eroica
discs I have in my collection .

[Peter]

I agree with you Peter but one must also remember that the forces used today are lager than the forces used in Beethovens time. The symphony Orchestra in Vienna at the time of the 1st performance of the Eroica numbered about 35 members while the performance at the Lobkowwitz performance numbered 30. In reality there was not much of a difference. The Le Concert des rchestra has a total of 42 members, just how many Savall uses is not called out in the liner notes. To me, this performance with the Le Concert des Orchestra is as good if not better than any of the Eroica
discs I have in my collection .

I think the Vienna university performance 1808 consisted of 56 players, almost double the forces used at the Lobkowitz performance. I agree with you that the Savall recording is fine and it has outstanding qualities such as rhythmic drive and clarity but I think the point is that we can be too pedantic about such issues today in our quest for 'authenticity'.

[Rutradelusasa]

...just how many Savall uses is not called out in the liner notes.

I said in a previous post.

[Sorrano]

Off and on in the past week or two I've been listening to Bruckner and Dvorak's complete symphonies.