Classical or romantic????

[PDG]

Originally posted by sunset_887:
im not very learned never have really studied one composer deeply, why do you believe he has very little in common with romantic composers? there seems to be so much debate over this in the mosic world!

Beethoven expanded and exhausted the classical possibilites within the sonata-form framework which was the accepted basis of classical composition at the time. And so much so that subsequent composers were almost forced to take a new direction, one (in which history reveals) that melody was to the fore. This new tangent meant an inevitable genre change, and so traditional Classical motivic development gave way to all-out Romantic instant appeal with its obvious downside (to me, anyway) being the limited options regarding development of original themes and bravura coda writing (of which Beethoven was the King!).

[sunset_887]

thanks for that

Originally posted by PDG:
Beethoven expanded and exhausted the classical possibilites within the sonata-form framework which was the accepted basis of classical composition at the time. And so much so that subsequent composers were almost forced to take a new direction, one (in which history reveals) that melody was to the fore. This new tangent meant an inevitable genre change, and so traditional Classical motivic development gave way to all-out Romantic instant appeal with its obvious downside (to me, anyway) being the limited options regarding development of original themes and bravura coda writing (of which Beethoven was the King!).

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after playing chopin i feel as if i had been weeping over sins that i had never committed and mourning over tragedies that were not my own

[Preston]

Thank you for that sunset_887. That does help clear things up.

Kind Regards,
Preston

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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[Peter]

Originally posted by sunset_887:
let me see if i can try and make things a little clearer, i hope others will correct my inaccuracies as im still very much a student, there were some periods pre dating this but we will start at the Baroque period, about 1600-1750 though you can never be dogmatic about these things,

You are quite right we can't be too dogmatic but I would say the Classical era goes from around 1750-1830 and thus overlaps with the Romantic.

Sonata is a confusing word because it meant different things at different times. The word (originating at the end of the 16th century) literally means 'to sound' and was used to distinguish instrumental from sung music (Cantata), though there are exceptions such as Monteverdi's 'Sonata sopra Santa maria' with an added voice part.

In the 17th and 18th centuries there were the Chamber Sonata and the Church Sonata - both were in several movements and written for strings and keyboard accompaniment. The main difference was that the Chamber sonata usually consisted of dance rhythms whilst the Church sonata was of a more serious character. At this stage the various movements (as in the suite) tended to be in the same key or the related minor.

The first solo instrument sonatas were probably by Bach's predecessor at Leipzig, Kuhnau. During the later 18th century the term was restricted to one or two instruments - sonatas for more became trios, quartets etc.. even the symphony is really a sonata for orchestra and sonatas for soloist with orchestra became concertos.

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'Man know thyself'

[Preston]

Thank you Peter, for that fascinating information.

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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by PDG:
Beethoven expanded and exhausted the classical possibilites within the sonata-form framework which was the accepted basis of classical composition at the time. And so much so that subsequent composers were almost forced to take a new direction, one (in which history reveals) that melody was to the fore. This new tangent meant an inevitable genre change, and so traditional Classical motivic development gave way to all-out Romantic instant appeal with its obvious downside (to me, anyway) being the limited options regarding development of original themes and bravura coda writing (of which Beethoven was the King!).

Whoa! I am not an expert by any means on sonata form. (And Charles Rosen in "The Classical Style" neatly debunks the notion that sonata form was a fixed, pre-determined thing, but shows it had a great deal of formal freedom, and only became 'defined' when it had more or less died as a creative vehicle. ) BUT to say that Romantic music had a limited options for developing themes is absurd. Brahms and Wagner, in my experience, develop themes with great variety and creativity, whether they are in strict "approved" forms or not. Wagner has a mere five or six themes in "The Meistersinger" which over five hours are developed in almost infinite variety, and with never a letdown in sheer musical magic. If you cannot abide Romantic music because of the style or sound, and have not listened with an open mind to this opera, fine, but it is not a good idea to judge the interior architecture of a house you have not visited.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 11-20-2006).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
No I think there is something of the Romantic spirit in Beethoven, his love of the literary, nature and his idealism for example. But these can of course be found in earlier composers and therefore are not specific Romantics traits....

There are to my mind no idealists of Beethoven's intensity in classical music before him. Handel, Haydn and Mozart had their standards but also sought to get along and please their employers and/or publics. Bach had stubbornness akin to Beethoven's in some ways but also was a successful, remarkably ordinary burgher living a middle class family existence and also many times toadied to his “betters” as much as he could. It is no coincidence that Beethoven became the first major composer to live by publishing (excepting of course his annuity). He had the guts and individuality for it. He had the intense personality, morality, individualism, the shaking of the fist against the sky, all Faustian Romantic traits. His love of nature, personified in the Pastoral symphony, is a leading trait of of the Romantic era. Compare it with the love of nature in Mozart or Haydn, which one has to ponder awhile even to think of any examples. He invented the song cycle, which is a quintessential Romantic form. Even his deafness adds to the picture of the isolated, Promethean hero. He actually personified the Romantic ideal, perhaps more in his impassioned, dramatic life than his music, although I think its in the spirit of his music if not in the form. Again, I always think of those shockingly powerful six diminished chords from the Eroica first movement. What 18th century composer could have written them? But after them, what was not possible?

[HaydnFan]

I agree with Chaszz on the point about Romantic melodies...to my ears, themes in the Romantic period are if anything, more original and allow for greater possibilities (less constrained) than Classical themes.

I don't know if I agree with the example of Brahms who (in my opinion) was not particularly skilled at thematic development or at least, was not great at coming up with memorable and timeless melodies.

I still think Romantic themes could not have come about without Classical period style though. Some of the best Romantic melodies draw slightly on the Classical period. I would give Mahler as an example.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
There are to my mind no idealists of Beethoven's intensity in classical music before him. Handel, Haydn and Mozart had their standards but also sought to get along and please their employers and/or publics. Bach had stubbornness akin to Beethoven's in some ways but also was a successful, remarkably ordinary burgher living a middle class family existence and also many times toadied to his “betters” as much as he could. It is no coincidence that Beethoven became the first major composer to live by publishing (excepting of course his annuity). He had the guts and individuality for it. He had the intense personality, morality, individualism, the shaking of the fist against the sky, all Faustian Romantic traits. His love of nature, personified in the Pastoral symphony, is a leading trait of of the Romantic era. Compare it with the love of nature in Mozart or Haydn, which one has to ponder awhile even to think of any examples. He invented the song cycle, which is a quintessential Romantic form. Even his deafness adds to the picture of the isolated, Promethean hero. He actually personified the Romantic ideal, perhaps more in his impassioned, dramatic life than his music, although I think its in the spirit of his music if not in the form. Again, I always think of those shockingly powerful six diminished chords from the Eroica first movement. What 18th century composer could have written them? But after them, what was not possible?

Well Mozart was the first to tell his employer where to go and to go it alone, not Beethoven who as you state was subsidised throughout his life and actually considered several court positions even late in life. I don't think Beethoven was the cause of the new musical environment but a product of it - Schubert was also on his own at the same time. As regards nature in music this goes back at least to Baroque times and Beethoven's own Pastoral symphony used very much as a model Joseph Knecht's symphony from the 1780s. Similar nature depictions are apparent in Haydn's creation, especially the opening depiction of Chaos. Yes those chords in the Eroica are shockingly original but what about the recapitulation passage in Mozart's 40th finale which is basically atonal! What about the finale of Haydn's 'farewell symphony' - where in all music is there anything like that?

The originality of a composer such as Haydn was completely overlooked by the 19th century and much of the Beethoven tormented genius battling with the elements is simply the Romantics reinventing Beethoven in their own image, and this has stuck to the present day.

Where in Beethoven does he wallow in despair or self pity? His music is by nature optimistic, it is not biographical as is the case with Chopin, Tchaikovsky or Mahler.


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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-20-2006).]

[Sorrano]

Well Mozart was the first to tell his employer where to go and to go it alone, not Beethoven who as you state was subsidised throughout his life and actually considered several court positions even late in life. I don't think Beethoven was the cause of the new musical environment but a product of it - Schubert was also on his own at the same time. As regards nature in music this goes back at least to Baroque times and Beethoven's own Pastoral symphony used very much as a model Joseph Knecht's symphony from the 1780s. Similar nature depictions are apparent in Haydn's creation, especially the opening depiction of Chaos. Yes those chords in the Eroica are shockingly original but what about the recapitulation passage in Mozart's 40th finale which is basically atonal! What about the finale of Haydn's 'farewell symphony' - where in all music is there anything like that?

The originality of a composer such as Haydn was completely overlooked by the 19th century and much of the Beethoven tormented genius battling with the elements is simply the Romantics reinventing Beethoven in their own image, and this has stuck to the present day.

Where in Beethoven does he wallow in despair or self pity? His music is by nature optimistic, it is not biographical as is the case with Chopin, Tchaikovsky or Mahler.


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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-20-2006).]

Many consider the 5th Symphony to be biographical. However, even the darker parts of the work, as you say, tend towards optimism.

[Peter]

Many consider the 5th Symphony to be biographical. However, even the darker parts of the work, as you say, tend towards optimism.

A perfect example of what I mean - the many who consider it biographical are reading their own Romantic visions into the work, a process that probably began with Hoffmann and Berlioz. Toscanini had this to say on the Eroica "To some it is Napoleon, to some it is a philosophical struggle, to me it is allegro con brio".

[Chaszz]

A perfect example of what I mean - the many who consider it biographical are reading their own Romantic visions into the work, a process that probably began with Hoffmann and Berlioz. Toscanini had this to say on the Eroica "To some it is Napoleon, to some it is a philosophical struggle, to me it is allegro con brio".

I suggest that nobody (even Toscanini) really knows if Beethoven's music is biographical, as nobody has been inside his brain. Certainly the finale of the Fifth Symphony, bursting forth from the dark chords of the preceding material, is about more than tonic-dominant resolution. I would suggest that much of it is not biographical, and some of it is. The connection between drama in much of his music and personal and politically-related drama in real life is too apparent to deny, IMO. It would certainly seem to be biographical to a some extent unless one turns a willfully blind eye to this aspect in order to maintain that he had nothing to do with the Romantic era. Which to my mind is bending over backwards a little too much.

[Gurn Blanston]

Actually, Vanhal, not Mozart, was the first independent composer. And he was far more successful at it in his own time. But that's just a quibble.

Chaszz, I would propose that Beethoven launched a mindset that had a huge impact on Romanticism. Which doesn't necessarily make him a Romantic, just an influential composer.

The real Father of Romantic music was, IMO, Carl Maria von Weber. He was far less constrained by form than was Beethoven, all his more successful music is in a far-less-rigid-than-sonata-form style that borders on fantasia. He did indeed write a few sonata-allegro first movements, but he hated it, and only wrote the first movement lastly. And less successfully than the rest of the work, by and large. He was also hugely influential on subsequent composers.

[Peter]

I suggest that nobody (even Toscanini) really knows if Beethoven's music is biographical, as nobody has been inside his brain.

Couldn't we say this of every composer in history?

Certainly the finale of the Fifth Symphony, bursting forth from the dark chords of the preceding material, is about more than tonic-dominant resolution. I would suggest that much of it is not biographical, and some of it is. The connection between drama in much of his music and personal and politically-related drama in real life is too apparent to deny, IMO. It would certainly seem to be biographical to a some extent unless one turns a willfully blind eye to this aspect in order to maintain that he had nothing to do with the Romantic era. Which to my mind is bending over backwards a little too much.

Certainly Beethoven was influenced by the French Revolution and by the music it produced, and like every great artist he reflects his own era. But taking the 5th symphony as an example, what do you suggest is being depicted in the context of 1807 political drama? The 9th symphony follows a similar theme of darkness to light but presumably it is telling a different story? For Wagner the 9th 'released music from its own peculiar elements into the realm of universal art' (whatever that is supposed to mean!). My point is that you can (and people do) read whatever you like into these works.

One of the earliest and most influential writers on Beethoven was Bettine Von Arnim and she attributed certain qualities to his music that furthered the Beethoven mystique and sought to portray him in a Romantic light. You only have to read Berlioz to see how fanciful these ideas became. By the end of the 19th century Beethoven was seen as the dispenser of salvation and the creator of a new moral universe. Increasingly the gap between fact and fiction widened as many literary examples bear testament to.

[Preston]

I suggest that nobody (even Toscanini) really knows if Beethoven's music is biographical, as nobody has been inside his brain.

I am not the most educated person as far as theory goes. Although, is his music not his brain written out on paper? I know that a lot of people have different interpretations towards music, and Beethoven can be a hard composer to understand (in my opinion).

Kind Regards,
Preston