Classical or romantic????

[sunset_887]

what would you class beethoven as if you were pushed to make a decision and why?

[PDG]

Humanity's greatest mind. There is no contest with Shakespeare (who didn't even exist), Michelangelo, Van Gogh, or even Mozart. Unlike any other artist in any other field, this composer was able to take his craft and use his genius above and beyond his own time and place. Beethoven poured his very soul into every note he wrote. His music is purely expressed, imperfect and suffered humanity.

I love this classic quote from Addorno:

"The opening horses' trot of the Farewell Sonata (Op.81a) underscores even more hope than the Four Gospels".

[Gurn Blanston]

Classical.

Cheers,

[HaydnFan]

I believe we have had this conversation in a previous thread which I had started.

I think that the consensus was generally that he straddled the two styles.

Actually, I found the thread below, it was actually about how long the Romantic era spanned but I believe we touched on Beethoven and which style he would be categorized as.
http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002547.html

[This message has been edited by HaydnFan (edited 11-16-2006).]

[Sorrano]

I agree with PDG. He supercedes classical and romantic.

[sunset_887]

can i quote that in my misic exam!

Originally posted by PDG:
Humanity's greatest mind. There is no contest with Shakespeare (who didn't even exist), Michelangelo, Van Gogh, or even Mozart. Unlike any other artist in any other field, this composer was able to take his craft and use his genius above and beyond his own time and place. Beethoven poured his very soul into every note he wrote. His music is purely expressed, imperfect and suffered humanity.

I love this classic quote from Addorno:

"The opening horses' trot of the Farewell Sonata (Op.81a) underscores even more hope than the Four Gospels".

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by sunset_887:
can i quote that in my misic exam!

No, you'd better not, because the music establishment considers him Classical. You might say that he is a Classical composer who pushed the style as far as it ever went. At the same time, in certain limited ways, in a wider and more general sense, he incorporated some of the early Romantic spirit of his age, not technically in style but in emotional, moral and literary attitudes.

At least that is the way I see it after having argued this topic for years here, and been educated by the site founder, Peter, in what the styles are technically. Even so, Peter may still disagree and think I've gone too far in the Romantic direction with my remarks above!!

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 11-18-2006).]

[Preston]

This is what I don't understand...

What do y'all mean classical and romatic style? Is it some form of writing? I thought they were, only, eras in time. In my post about how classical music got its name, noone mentioned any form or style. I even said that I didn't believe there was any form or style? I apologize if I sound very lost.

Preston

------------------
"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[Chris]

It must be Classical. His use of Classical forms and key relationships ties it. Frankly, I think Beethoven really has very little in common with the Romantic composers.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
No, you'd better not, because the music establishment considers him Classical. You might say that he is a Classical composer who pushed the style as far as it ever went. At the same time, in certain limited ways, in a wider and more general sense, he incorporated some of the early Romantic spirit of his age, not technically in style but in emotional, moral and literary attitudes.

At least that is the way I see it after having argued this topic for years here, and been educated by the site founder, Peter, in what the styles are technically. Even so, Peter may still disagree and think I've gone too far in the Romantic direction with my remarks above!!

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 11-18-2006).]

No I think there is something of the Romantic spirit in Beethoven, his love of the literary, nature and his idealism for example. But these can of course be found in earlier composers and therefore are not specific Romantics traits. I think a lot of Beethoven's 'Romantic' thinking was formed in his Bonn university days and especially through the influence of men like Neefe.

The difference in the styles ultimately has to be seen in musical terms and the sort of scholarship and painstaking research by someone such as Charles Rosen brilliantly demonstrates that Beethoven was very much a Classical composer. I don't even see him as a bridge between the two styles or as the originator of Romanticism - Weber, Spohr, Field, Hummel and Italian opera were the roots of the new style which was going on simultaneously with Beethoven's even stricter classical approach as he aged.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[HaydnFan]

Preston, "Classical" or "Romantic" can refer to both eras and styles...

Usually, specific artistic styles are generally predominant during particular time periods. However, a particular style can be executed after the era in which it was predominant.

For example, if someone wrote a Mozart-like piece of music today, in the 21st century, we would still consider it to be in the Classical style but it is generally accepted that the Classical era was from the 1770's or so until the early 1800's because that is when the Classical style dominated the music scene.

[Preston]

Thank you HaydnFan. So you are saying that certain styles of writing were mainly used during these era's? Romantic style for the romantic, and classical style for the classical era?

Still doesn't make that much sense to me??? Are there different forms of writing in the different periods. Such as, in the romantic era was the sonata written differently than in the classical?

------------------
"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[sunset_887]

let me see if i can try and make things a little clearer, i hope others will correct my inaccuracies as im still very much a student, there were some periods pre dating this but we will start at the Baroque period, about 1600-1750 though you can never be dogmatic about these things,

new forms : Dance Suites, solo sonata, trio sonata, solo concerto overtures, arias fugues, operas, oratorias, cantatas
these forms, are i believe known to have commences in this period!

classical period comes next
around 1750-1800 were some of these forms are expanded, changed, for example the concerto was developed from the baroque concerto, there was also symphonies and the classical sonata which perhaps evolved from the fugue style? + the development of 1st mov sonata form these kind of things were perticualr to this classical period!

then there is the Romantic period 1800-1900 -individualism emotionalism, nationalism, subjectivity-in this period there was a great expansion for orchestra for one, it becomes much bigger, choral music has kind of fallen to the background a little, and program music became very important forms are further changed, stylised dances--waltz, polonaise, studys--made suitable for concert use, the sonata, is generly replaced by free forms, romance, fantasy, ballad, intermezzo, nocturne etc

then we have twentieth century reaction to domainant german romantic traditions
and there are subcatogories:
impressionism; debussy, ravel,
neo-classasism: a return of classical point of view -prokofiev
expressionism: exression of inner self
jazz even comes in here with gershwin etc

please feel free to correct anything i havent been accurate with!
preston i hope that small overview helps a little and never appologise for confussion!

Originally posted by Preston:
Thank you HaydnFan. So you are saying that certain styles of writing were mainly used during these era's? Romantic style for the romantic, and classical style for the classical era?

Still doesn't make that much sense to me??? Are there different forms of writing in the different periods. Such as, in the romantic era was the sonata written differently than in the classical?

[sunset_887]

im not very learned never have really studied one composer deeply, why do you believe he has very little in common with romantic composers? there seems to be so much debate over this in the mosic world!

Originally posted by Chris:
It must be Classical. His use of Classical forms and key relationships ties it. Frankly, I think Beethoven really has very little in common with the Romantic composers.

[PDG]

Originally posted by sunset_887:
can i quote that in my misic exam!

No!