Beethoven vs. Mozart - VOTE HERE!

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by PDG:
And the moon is made of cheese. I think I've heard everything now....(No wonder Rod's staying away). No other art form, whether Shakespeare (who didn't exist, by the way), paintings, sculpture, etc. can have the power to move us as deeply as great music because music moves. It is not a static thing where all the pleasure can be assimilated or enjoyed at once.

[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 10-31-2006).]

It IS true, and I've had a piece of it (the moon).

People have different psyches and different things affect different people. I think in general terms you are absolutely correct that music is the art that reaches most deeply within because it is dynamic--yet at the same time because of its transitory nature we are often left yearning more. But a statue or a painting does not "go away" so easily. There are paintings that move me very deeply, yet the affect is very different from the effect of a Beethoven Symphony; different emotions are evoked. Because that music has rhythm (speaking generically) and sound it also has a physical connection in ways that other art forms do not have.

(If you want some of that green cheese let me know, maybe I can sneak a piece for you.)

[PDG]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
It IS true, and I've had a piece of it (the moon).

Of course it's true, Mr. S! And the Moonlight Sonata is the greatest cheese music (mice love it, too)...

[PDG]

Originally posted by Sorrano:


(If you want some of that green cheese let me know, maybe I can sneak a piece for you.)

Oh, if it's green does that mean it's gone off? When was the "sell by" date?

[Joy]

I have to agree with having emotion over art, paintings, sculptures, etc. Some are quite moving. The Sistine Chapel for instance. Can you truly look at that without being moved?!! I mean justlook at it!
http://images.google.com/images?q=si...mages&ct=title

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 11-01-2006).]

[Preston]

I agree that paintings, sculptures, poetry, etc. can be very moving. Maybe what PDG is trying to say is that for most people music is more moving, feeling wise. When you see a peace of art you may break down in tears and never forget the meaning of it. But when you hear something like the 9th symphony there are many more feelings that the average (non musical genius), human being can feel.

For instance, when, say, Beethoven saw a painting or sculpture he may have heard and felt something like the 9th symphony, because he is Beethoven!!!, and had that ability. The ability to hear unimaginable music and feel unimaginable feelings about the painting, sculpture, poetry, etc. But again, most of us can't feel the 9th symphony in our souls when we see a painting.

So while the two (music and art) can be equally moving, they move us in different ways, for the more common human being. So for the more common human being, and not the musical genius, the two are very different, in my opinion.

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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 11-01-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Preston:
I agree that paintings, sculptures, poetry, etc. can be very moving. Maybe what PDG is trying to say is that for most people music is more moving, feeling wise. When you see a peace of art you may break down in tears and never forget the meaning of it. But when you hear something like the 9th symphony there are many more feelings that the average (non musical genius), human being can feel.

For instance, when, say, Beethoven saw a painting or sculpture he may have heard and felt something like the 9th symphony, because he is Beethoven!!!, and had that ability. The ability to hear unimaginable music and feel unimaginable feelings about the painting, sculpture, poetry, etc. But again, most of us can't feel the 9th symphony in our souls when we see a painting.

So while the two (music and art) can be equally moving, they move us in different ways, for the more common human being. So for the more common human being, and not the musical genius, the two are very different, in my opinion.

Yes people are moved in different ways and by different art forms. In my experience literary people tend to be less moved by music, two notable exceptions Thomas mann and E.M.Forster. Of course that is a huge generalisation of the type I normally disapprove, but it is based mainly on people I have known!

Stangely enough there is little evidence that Beethoven was moved by either painting or sculpture, he himself seems more inclined to the literary. I think for him nature, the outdoors was the greatest painting and God the supreme artist!

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by PDG:
Oh, if it's green does that mean it's gone off? When was the "sell by" date?

Would you rather have the green or the blue? The green is more exotic!

[Preston]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
By the way, I am not trying to "trap" you into an answer...this topic does not have a right answer, it is one that is ever being debated in the art world.

Tendency would be to say no, an artist's personal behaviour / beliefs should not affect our judgement on his or her art but then how could we possibly explain and appreciate the works of van Gogh?

HaydnFan, what I was saying was it depends on how true an artist is to their art. You have imitators, phony's, people who copy other peoples work, the list goes on in a variety of ways.

For example, Beethoven in my opinion, was very true to his art. He would sometimes wait 4 YEARS!!! just to make sure that his piece was right, I am not saying that because an artist waits 4 years means he is a genius, I just feel that with Beethoven this was one of his genius like qualities. He even said that he was his art. There are a lot of people who are not like this.

Sorry made some mistakes in my post about what I feel a genius is. I meant to say hears things differently. Has almost super powers, such as unbelievably keen hearing, the ability to hear a number of notes in your head at one time in perfect clarity, etc. Those are more like being good at math and science though, than having a deeper understanding of life.

HaydnFan why do you think, Caravaggio, is a genius? I think he was a fool, with a great talent.

Kind Regards,
Preston

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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 11-12-2006).]

[HaydnFan]

I already said why I think he was a genius...I had defined the term on the other page...he was exceptional (not JUST talented) and his career only spanned about a decade but look what he created in that time.

He is the Baroque equivalent of Raphael and Michelangelo Buonarroti. I hesitate to include Leonardo in this list because he was a number of other things and not predominantly a painter. But of course, he was a genius as well.

Genius has to do with having natural gifts far and above what others possess. Preston, why do you think Caravaggio was not a genius?

[Preston]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
I already said why I think he was a genius...I had defined the term on the other page...he was exceptional (not JUST talented) and his career only spanned about a decade but look what he created in that time.

He is the Baroque equivalent of Raphael and Michelangelo Buonarroti. I hesitate to include Leonardo in this list because he was a number of other things and not predominantly a painter. But of course, he was a genius as well.

Genius has to do with having natural gifts far and above what others possess. Preston, why do you think Caravaggio was not a genius?

I feel that it takes a human being who is truly a good person to be a real genius. Sure you can have your mathematical geniuses and scientific geniuses, but they could be evil.

I don't feel that someone who spends the majority of their life raping, murdering, fighting, cursing, sinning, etc. is a true genius.

You realize that if Caravaggio were to see you on the street he would probably beat you and possibly rape you.

Some of the most talented art I have seen is about nothing that great. While some of the most untalented is about the most amazing things.

I feel that people like monks and their paintings are far greater than Caravaggio.

This is what I feel, apparently you, and I imagine there are a lot of people who, feel different.

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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 11-12-2006).]

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Preston:

You realize that if Caravaggio were to see you on the street he would probably beat you and possibly rape you.

I realize that you should not believe everything you read about Caravaggio in books or saw in movies. Caravaggio was suspected of having comitted manslaughter in the heat of the moment. He was never tried and convicted. We have absolutely no proof that he ever raped somebody. Would you like to be suspected of having committed such a crime without an ounce of proof?

[PDG]

Originally posted by Preston:

You realize that if Caravaggio were to see you on the street he would probably beat you and possibly rape you.

Ouch (x 2)!

[HaydnFan]

Well, we know that Caravaggio had a violent temper and possibly killed someone...so Preston, how do you figure that he "spent most of his time killing and raping"?

This is a completely nonsensical comment. I am sure of he did nothing but rape and kill we would have never heard of him. By the way, I think he dabbled in painting...

As I have said again and again, I still don't know why you think being virtuous and moral has anything to do with genius...the two are absolutely non-related.

What do you mean by "some of the most talented are I have seen is about nothing that great...some of the most untalented is about the most amazing things"?

Another non-sensical comment.

You do realize that many of Caravaggio's works are on religious subject matter, right?

[Preston]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Well, we know that Caravaggio had a violent temper and possibly killed someone...so Preston, how do you figure that he "spent most of his time killing and raping"?

This is a completely nonsensical comment. I am sure of he did nothing but rape and kill we would have never heard of him. By the way, I think he dabbled in painting...

As I have said again and again, I still don't know why you think being virtuous and moral has anything to do with genius...the two are absolutely non-related.

What do you mean by "some of the most talented are I have seen is about nothing that great...some of the most untalented is about the most amazing things"?

Another non-sensical comment.

You do realize that many of Caravaggio's works are on religious subject matter, right?

I didn't say he spent all of his time raping and killing. I was saying that people in general do some of these things. Yes I do realize that his paintings are about religion. Just because someone paints about things doesn't mean they are right. It reminds me of 2-Pac. He rapped about God, opression, etc. and I feel he was no genius by any means. He even grew a beard at one point and were a muslim hat! But he was such a bad person, that it makes me want to vomit. There have been professors who tried to teach his lyrics in class, but most were fired. I feel that being a truly good person is what it takes to be a true genius. As I said you can be great genius at math, an unreal talent at painting, science, and be evil. But I don't consider people that are evil to have a better understanding of life. This is my belief towards a genius, not yours, apparently.

Here are some links about Tupac. Notice the nuns that he puts in the video and the statues of angels, the crosses, the way it shows happiness with a child, the way it shows happiness with the family, etc. etc. etc. Please note that I find this sickening that a person could be so confused.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...upac+god&hl=en
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...40&q=pac&hl=en

Now watch this video of Andres Segovia, a real genius. Listen to what he says about God and nature. Listen to his love for life and his heart of goodness. He has such a great soul.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...=segovia&hl=en

The difference in the people is beyond belief. Andres is so full of happiness and life. His love for nature and life and caring astounds me. He is truly a good man. Tupac is a sick piece of waste, who thought he was close to God, and was so confused that he went around doing the most sinful things. Look at what an idiot he was. One of the main things he cared for was, being cool.

HaydnFan, would you mind telling what you think, in detail, a genius is?
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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 11-12-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 11-13-2006).]

[HaydnFan]

Preston, why are you asking for my definition of genius???

Have you not read my posts? I have basically defined it in every post!!! I had two posts in particular on the Webster's definition and I stated that I agree with that definition and that most people (not you) agree on that definition because it is how it is defined in the English language!