Beethoven vs. Mozart - VOTE HERE!

[Peter]

I am not sure how close to God Bach was first of all but I suppose it is a matter of opinion...(or more accurately, how close to God he thought he was because along these lines, we would first have to prove the existance of a god but this is a separate argument)

I can't recall who it was, but someone on hearing the B minor mass said "now I know there is a God!" I agree we can't prove these things, but no one can deny the profound spirituality of Bach's music.

[Preston]

I think I have now said everything I can. Peter, I have read a book by Solomon, that gives a lot of the little bit of information I stated. I have read some of a book called Beethoven: His Spiritual Development, or something like that.

I believe that genius can be one step away from madness, although I feel that genius can be truly the greatest sanity of all! I believe that you can be mad and be a genius, but keep in mind that I believe sanity (clear thought, good perception, maturity, control over ones self, etc.) is the greatest gift of all genius. There is nothing wrong with having psychological problems. They are people just like you and I, some smarter, some not.

Kind Regards,
Preston

[Peter]

I think I have now said everything I can. Peter, I have read a book by Solomon, that gives a lot of the little bit of information I stated. I have read some of a book called Beethoven: His Spiritual Development, or something like that.

I believe that genius can be one step away from madness, although I feel that genius can be truly the greatest sanity of all! I believe that you can be mad and be a genius, but keep in mind that I believe sanity (clear thought, good perception, maturity, control over ones self, etc.) is the greatest gift of all genius. There is nothing wrong with having psychological problems. They are people just like you and I, some smarter, some not.

Kind Regards,
Preston

Ah Solomon - that explains it! This is a book I only think should be read (if at all) after you've read Thayer/Eliot, Cooper, or Robbins-Landon. Solomon applies his own psychological theories (often inspired by the Sterbas) and I think these can be quite misleading, not least the claim that Antonie Brentano was the Immortal beloved - a theory widely accepted in the US and Uk, but not so in Europe.

[Chaszz]

I think most people would rate music as their favorite art. I’m an artist but I love music more than art. If I could compose I would, but I have no ideas even for themes or melodies, let alone whole songs or movements. I do have ideas for paintings in my mind, so I know this is where my talent lies. I sing and play folk and rock on guitar for recreation, mainly blues and Bob Dylan songs. As a young man, I played a lot of jazz and blues guitar in dance and entertainment venues.

There are a few artists I love as much as music. The first is Rembrandt. When I was in art college, a teacher told me I’d appreciate Rembrandt more the older I got, and this has proven true. This appreciation is still growing.

The next is the Parthenon Sculptures (Elgin Marbles) in the British Museum, produced by a group of ancient Greek sculptors under the leadership and designs of the genius Phidias. The east pediment* of the Parthenon is better preserved than the west, and is in my opinion the greatest surviving work of Western art. Michelangelo is the only sculptor who can be compared with Phidias, but Michelangelo never achieved a program on a scale so extensive as this, speaking now of the whole sculptural ensemble of the Parthenon on display here rather than just the pediments.

(It should be borne in mind that the Parthenon sculptures were painted in multicolor when they were new. The overall effect may have been similar to the Sistine Ceiling, but we have no real idea what it was like, because no ancient Greek sculptures have survived without losing their paint due to age or weathering. Also this is why when ancient Greek art was revived in the Renaissance, sculptures were left white rather than painted in color - the Renaissance sculptors had no idea the ancient statues had been painted. Ancient Greek wall and easel painting, which featured dark-and-light modelling and perspective, has also completely vanished.)

3. Frank Lloyd Wright.
4. The Sistine Ceiling.
5. Cezanne.

Of course I love a lot of other artists, but these are the ones I love as much as music.

To my knowledge, with one exception the great German and Austrian composers left us a complete dearth of comments on visual art. They seem as a group to have been indifferent to it, although most of them thrilled to literature. The exception is Wagner, whose enthusiastic comments about two "magnificent" Holbeins they had seen one day were recorded in Cosima’s dairy.

* A pediment is the sculptural scene of many figures which fills the triangular space at the end of a temple roof. Each temple has two pediments. The Parthenon pediment figures are somewhat over lifesize.

[Peter]

To my knowledge, with one exception the great German and Austrian composers left us a complete dearth of comments on visual art. They seem as a group to have been indifferent to it, although most of them thrilled to literature. The exception is Wagner, whose enthusiastic comments about two "magnificent" Holbeins they had seen one day were recorded in Cosima’s dairy.

* A pediment is the sculptural scene of many figures which fills the triangular space at the end of a temple roof. Each temple has two pediments. The Parthenon pediment figures are somewhat over lifesize.

I think it comes down to travel - the more a composer travelled (especially to Italy) I think the more he was likely to mention art in his letters.
There are plenty of artistic references in Liszt's letters - he sat alone one night transfixed by Cellini's Perseus in Florence. Mendelssohn also has several references to artists in his letters which display great knowledge and appreciation.

[atserriotserri]

I can't recall who it was, but someone on hearing the B minor mass said "now I know there is a God!" I agree we can't prove these things, but no one can deny the profound spirituality of Bach's music.

In a Bach biography the author mentioned that some german eclesiastical authority of Bach's time was forced to rectify in written a praise he made about that mass, because he referred to the "perfection" of the composition, and risked facing excomunication (you know, just God can create perfect things).

[HaydnFan]

Chaszz, Rembrandt is my favourite too

[Chaszz]

I think it comes down to travel - the more a composer travelled (especially to Italy) I think the more he was likely to mention art in his letters.
There are plenty of artistic references in Liszt's letters - he sat alone one night transfixed by Cellini's Perseus in Florence. Mendelssohn also has several references to artists in his letters which display great knowledge and appreciation.

I apologize for having made a sweeping statement without knowing of those quotes.

To address the issue of having to travel to see great art, The Kunsthistorisches Museum in Vienna was a repository for a great deal of Hapsburg-collected art and might have been open for visits by the composers who lived in town. It had and has a magnificent series of Titians as well as a lot of other great art. I have just written an email to the museum asking when it first opened and whether the general public could have visited.

Secondly, the glories of German church architecture, both Gothic and Baroque, were visible to any composer who walked into one of these many churches yet (again, to my knowledge) there are no quotes from "our boys" on any these buildings or their sculptures or painted decorations.

Lastly, and I admit this is hair-splitting, I personally would not admit either Liszt or Mendelssohn to the top rank of the greatest composers. I meant Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner when I talked about dearth of quotes on art.

[HaydnFan]

You forgot Schubert...shouldn't he be with the other composers you mentioned?

[Nightklavier]

Lastly, and I admit this is hair-splitting, I personally would not admit either Liszt or Mendelssohn to the top rank of the greatest composers.

I would have made the same assertion about Liszt... until I heard much of Leslie Howard's 59 Volume series on Hyperion. Just hearing the popular Hungarian Rhapsodies, Transcendental Etudes, or even the entire Annees de Pelerinage isn't enough. I won't argue with your opinion of where he ranks, but I just wish to clarify, at least from my experience, that it takes deep probing into Liszt's works to realize he was one of the greatest composers of his time. He tends to be underrated, mocked, not taken seriously, or criticized for technical bombast when most of his music was quiet and highly original. I put him and Brahms on the same level. Where Brahms succeeded him with incredible symphonies and chamber pieces, Liszt equaled his genius with superb piano compositions.

I think you'd appreciate Liszt's adoration of art, though, Chaszz. He wrote his Totentanz after gazing at the fresco, The Triumph of Death, in the Camposanto of Pisa. He was inspired to write his dark "Il Penseroso" after visiting the Michelangelo sculptured tomb of Giuliano de Medici. Liszt was influenced by the Kaulbach mural depicting the 451 AD battle between the Huns and Emperor Theodoric and wrote his symphonic poem Hunnenschlacht (Hun's Battle). I believe some paintings he saw illustrating The Divine Comedy also affected Liszt enough to write his Dante Symphony.

[Peter]

I apologize for having made a sweeping statement without knowing of those quotes.

To address the issue of having to travel to see great art, The Kunsthistorisches Museum in Vienna was a repository for a great deal of Hapsburg-collected art and might have been open for visits by the composers who lived in town. It had and has a magnificent series of Titians as well as a lot of other great art. I have just written an email to the museum asking when it first opened and whether the general public could have visited.

Secondly, the glories of German church architecture, both Gothic and Baroque, were visible to any composer who walked into one of these many churches yet (again, to my knowledge) there are no quotes from "our boys" on any these buildings or their sculptures or painted decorations.

Lastly, and I admit this is hair-splitting, I personally would not admit either Liszt or Mendelssohn to the top rank of the greatest composers. I meant Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner when I talked about dearth of quotes on art.

Well Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn hardly needed to write to their friends about the artisitic treasures in Vienna as they obviously lived there. That is what I was meaning by travel, when people write back home enthusing about the great sights. Beethoven's letters are certainly not of the 'travel guide' variety! But you are right we don't have quotes on the great artists from these composers, but I do not think it necessarily implies an indifference. Of the composers you mention Handel, Mozart and Brahms all visited Italy and it is surprising that we don't have more from them on the artistic treasures they must have encountered. Tchaikovsky was actually quite bored by the Pitti palace in Florence!

[Chaszz]

You forgot Schubert...shouldn't he be with the other composers you mentioned?

Yes.

[Chaszz]

I would have made the same assertion about Liszt... until I heard much of Leslie Howard's 59 Volume series on Hyperion. Just hearing the popular Hungarian Rhapsodies, Transcendental Etudes, or even the entire Annees de Pelerinage isn't enough. I won't argue with your opinion of where he ranks, but I just wish to clarify, at least from my experience, that it takes deep probing into Liszt's works to realize he was one of the greatest composers of his time. He tends to be underrated, mocked, not taken seriously, or criticized for technical bombast when most of his music was quiet and highly original. I put him and Brahms on the same level. Where Brahms succeeded him with incredible symphonies and chamber pieces, Liszt equaled his genius with superb piano compositions.

I think you'd appreciate Liszt's adoration of art, though, Chaszz. He wrote his Totentanz after gazing at the fresco, The Triumph of Death, in the Camposanto of Pisa. He was inspired to write his dark "Il Penseroso" after visiting the Michelangelo sculptured tomb of Giuliano de Medici. Liszt was influenced by the Kaulbach mural depicting the 451 AD battle between the Huns and Emperor Theodoric and wrote his symphonic poem Hunnenschlacht (Hun's Battle). I believe some paintings he saw illustrating The Divine Comedy also affected Liszt enough to write his Dante Symphony.

I'll have to try delving into Liszt more.

[Chaszz]

Well Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn hardly needed to write to their friends about the artisitic treasures in Vienna as they obviously lived there. That is what I was meaning by travel, when people write back home enthusing about the great sights. Beethoven's letters are certainly not of the 'travel guide' variety! But you are right we don't have quotes on the great artists from these composers, but I do not think it necessarily implies an indifference. Of the composers you mention Handel, Mozart and Brahms all visited Italy and it is surprising that we don't have more from them on the artistic treasures they must have encountered. Tchaikovsky was actually quite bored by the Pitti palace in Florence!

This is what I mean. Since we know about everything from Beethoven's cooking dinner for his friends to Mozart's delight about bathroom matters, it would seem we'd have a scrap of enthusiasm for a work of art if there was one. I suggest their art appreciation was muted at best.

It works the other way, too. Picasso was unable to hear much in music, though he loved literature. Quotes by great artists on music are rare, (except for Ingres, who adored Gluck).

This contrasts with the great Venetian painters who were almost all skilled musicians. Titian is depicted in a painting by Veronese sawing away intently on a bass viol in a quartet. Two paintings by Giorgione depict musicians lost in ecstasy over their chords.

(Although not comparing myself as an artist to anyone mentioned above, I am tone-deaf to Caravaggio [sorry, Caravaggio fans!].)

Literature seems to be the great equalizer. Most musicians and artists seem to love literature, even though they may be tepid toward their opposite form in music or art.

[Peter]

I haven't read Brahms's letters and wondered if there was anything there?