Beethoven vs. Mozart - VOTE HERE!

[Preston]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Preston, why are you asking for my definition of genius???

Have you not read my posts? I have basically defined it in every post!!! I had two posts in particular on the Webster's definition and I stated that I agree with that definition and that most people (not you) agree on that definition because it is how it is defined in the English language!

I know that you said that you believed the Webster's definition. I was wondering if you could explain, in detail, in your own words what you thought a genius was? Which I don't believe you have done yet.

I never said that I didn't think there was truth to Webster's definition. But with that definition you could be an evil genius. Which as I said, is not what I consider a smart person or a real genius.

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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 11-13-2006).]

[HaydnFan]

Preston, I don't see why I should or need to explain any further, the Webster's definition and everything I said capture what I believe genius to be:

(restated AGAIN): mental, intellectual superiority, especially as manifested in creative activity

That is, as I have said, not in agreement with your view that a genius must also be a moral individual. There is nothing about that in Webster's definition nor in my own definition.

These people who reflect your moral ideals, if you want to call them something else then fine, but to say that someone is not a genius because of their personality is not consistent with the use of the term in common language. While it is nice that you have your own personal definition and you can state it to your heart's content, it is somewhat meaningless in the real world...a definition is a definition.

Of course, definitions can change over time (words continually take on new slangs/meanings) but as far as I know, the term "genius" has not changed from its present dictionary meaning.

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Preston:
I didn't say he spent all of his time raping and killing. I was saying that people in general do some of these things. Yes I do realize that his paintings are about religion. Just because someone paints about things doesn't mean they are right. It reminds me of 2-Pac.

From Caravaggio to 2-Pac. Never stick to an example. You live in wikiality.

[LizR]

Preston,

You seem obsessed with referring to people as evil. Why can you not just relax and enjoy the music?

For what it's worth I'm with Haydnfan on this. I feel anyone can possess genius, whatever their chosen lifestyle.

[Preston]

Originally posted by LizR:
Preston, I feel anyone can possess genius, whatever their chosen lifestyle.

I am not obsessed with referring to people as evil, I may have used the term evil genius to many times, sorry for that. If you think I am obsessed with using evil too much you should hear the pastor of the church I attend.

As I said I feel that you can be a mathmatical, computer programming, etc., genius. I disagree with people being a true genius and being bad, that is my opinion though. As I said I feel a true genius has a deeper understanding of life, love for things, stuff like that, etc.

Preston


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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 11-20-2006).]

[atserriotserri]

I disagree with people being a true genius and being bad, that is my opinion though. As I said I feel a true genius has a deeper understanding of life, love for things, stuff like that, etc.

I think one opens pandora's box once you have to examine all aspects of someone's life to consider him a genius because leaving aside extreme cases such as the mentioned Caravaggio, there are many behaviours that can allow labelling someone as "bad".

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not criticising you nor sound agressive, I just want to know your perspective: I love Rubinstein, for me is a genius, nevertheless his own daughter Eva described him as "a man who never should have had children" I've read that his "womanizer" personality caused that Paul and Eva, his older sons, spent entire years without talking to his father for the hurt he caused them and their mother, Rubinstein's wife, whom he left when he was 90 for Annabelle Whitestone, younger than his daughter. That converts him in a mere good pianist, and not a genius? Just one quote; Rubinstein himself said, according to Harvey Sachs biography: "I am really not a very nice person. I have a bad character. Just ask my family, they will tell you. But when it comes to music, the music - ah, that is where I have total integrity."

And remember that despite the alleged (I haven't seen any evidence) Chopin's antisemitism, Brailowsky, Rubinstein, Cherkassky, Gilels, Schiff, Ashkenazy, Ax, Barenboim... among other jewish pianists have had Chopin in his repertoire.

[Chaszz]

Chaszz, did you say you are an artist? (or at least, you know a lot about art)

Was Caravaggio a genius in your opinion despite his questionable personal life? Do you think we should separate an artist from their work? (this goes for music too).

I personally think yes, Caravaggio is a genius regardless of what he did. Just because he committed a horrible crime, it does not mean he is sick and that we should not rate him highly.

Preston, if you have studied art like I have, I am surprised you don't recognize the genius of Caravaggio...

This is how Webster's defines genius as it relates to our discussion:

b : extraordinary intellectual power especially as manifested in creative activity c : a person endowed with transcendent mental superiority; especially : a person with a very high IQ

I believe also, that there are various categories of genius which include the arts (visual and musical etc.)...would you not say Preston, that Caravaggio can fit the definition of "superior intellect with respect to creativity" regardless of his behaviour???...according to the definition, his actions outside of his creative pursuits have little if anything to do with this classification.

On what grounds then do you suppose these individuals, which Peter has mentioned, are not geniuses?

Sorry to bring this up, if it is inappropriate let me know, but I hope you are not letting your religious beliefs get in the way of judging the creative output of these men.

Yes, I'm an artist. I think an artist's work should be judged for itself and separate from his life, because as discussed above there were some criminals among the great artists. (To the list Peter gave, I'd add Francois Villon, the great poet who was a highwayman and murderer.) Wagner was a great composer but a terrible person.

My own private opinion is that an artist, or a genius in any field, to some extent has to remain a child in order to see and feel with the intense directness of a child. The greater the genius the more childlike in many ways, and often this extends to childish selfishness and lack of concern for other people. The genius may idealize mankind as a whole yet treat his friend or neighbor with lack of respect or contempt, as in the case of Schopenhauer who threw his neighbor down the stairs because she talked too loudly on the landing, while he preached compassion as the highest virtue. Other examples are Picasso, who idealized women yet treated them very badly, Beethoven's childish rages, Mozart's immaturity in jokes and with money, Einstein's selfishness and indifference toward his own family members, Newton's viciousness, Heisenberg's and Strauss' fawning desires to serve the Nazis, the repellent antisemitism of many great 19th century artists, composers and writers, etc., etc. The conclusion, to me, is that in some ways a genius may be the LAST person to look to for mature and moral behavior, however much he seems to manifest wisdom in his work.

[Preston]

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not criticising you nor sound agressive, I just want to know your perspective:

I am not saying that a person can't be somewhat bad and be a genius. As I said I think murderers, etc. can be a true geniuses.

I don't feel however that someone who spends the majority of their time being, in a sense, very bad (raping, killing, fighting constantly, looking down on people, etc.) can be a true/life (as I call it) genius.

From what I have read, Caravaggio, was a pretty bad guy. They say he used to just wait for a fight, with a sword, constantly. His lack of love towards life, his thoughts towards love, his thoughts towards care, hope, serenity, etc. are misplaced. That is why I feel he cannot be a true genius.

Notice I say true genius. As I said I feel you could be a bad genius. For example you could have exceptional knowledge at computer programming, math, science, history, etc. and be a genius at it.

The reason I look up to Beethoven so much is because he was very optimistic. He had care for life and other things of that nature. He was a good person. That to me is a sign of true genius. I feel that if Beethoven was a truly bad person that he would not have been the genius we consider him to be. For instance, what if he wrote the 9th symphony saying that we should fight, kill, rape, etc. instead of come together and love one another as brothers and sisters.

So, yes, I feel there are different types of genius. But I do feel that to be a true genius, it takes goodness. In a sense, it really boils down to how bad you are.

Hope this helps. I am willing to explain further, if I can. Also, these are my beliefs.

Preston

[Peter]

.

The reason I look up to Beethoven so much is because he was very optimistic. He had care for life and other things of that nature. He was a good person. That to me is a sign of true genius. I feel that if Beethoven was a truly bad person that he would not have been the genius we consider him to be. For instance, what if he wrote the 9th symphony saying that we should fight, kill, rape, etc. instead of come together and love one another as brothers and sisters.

So, yes, I feel there are different types of genius. But I do feel that to be a true genius, it takes goodness. In a sense, it really boils down to how bad you are.

Hope this helps. I am willing to explain further, if I can. Also, these are my beliefs.

Preston

Beethoven was an idealist and his music expresses these values, but we must remember he himself fell short of these ideals many times - just think how cruelly he treated his nephew and sister-in-law. Beethoven's intentions may have been good, but his actions often were not. It is a left over from the 19th century who wanted their idols to be whiter than white, saintly and divine - no one on this earth is that perfect!

That is why I think we turn to art and music because it can express the very best in us, despite our short-comings. Beethoven perhaps more than most composers (except Bach) expresses the spiritual quest, the desire for goodness and love and this is what attracts us.

[Preston]

Beethoven was an idealist and his music expresses these values, but we must remember he himself fell short of these ideals many times - just think how cruelly he treated his nephew and sister-in-law. Beethoven's intentions may have been good, but his actions often were not. It is a left over from the 19th century who wanted their idols to be whiter than white, saintly and divine - no one on this earth is that perfect!

That is why I think we turn to art and music because it can express the very best in us, despite our short-comings. Beethoven perhaps more than most composers (except Bach) expresses the spiritual quest, the desire for goodness and love and this is what attracts us.

You see this is what throws me off about Beethoven. Peter, I am sure you know more than I do about Beethoven, but do you not feel his depression and madness led to him doing cruel things. I do believe that learning about hardships and other things of that nature are important, so I could understand why Beethoven may have done some of the things he did to people, like Karl. Beethoven apparently went to far, though. But at times, from what I understand, he was just off balance. People couldn't bear his company sometimes, he made people want to leave his side, he was extremely cruel, etc.

What throws me off about Beethoven is how he writes music, in my opinion, of almost perfect sanity (clear mind, control over ones self, good perception, maturity, happiness etc.), then he does numerous and I mean numerous things that are not related to sanity but would incline more towards insanity. That shows there is something more than meets the eye in my opinion.

For instance, the Pastoral, to write of such touching feelings towards life is unbelievable, I personally don't think any other musician could express nature and life better than Beethoven.

And these words, "But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate". These words to me are like hearing the voice of God. Surely someone who can say these words about God, are very close to him. Which means unreal things.

I do not know to much about Bach but I am curious to know about what you said about him. Why do you feel he was more inclined to healing humanity (you didn't say this but I thought it was similar way of expressing what you said about Bach), etc. than Beethoven?

Kind Regards,
Preston

[Sorrano]

Preston, what genius can anyone find that did not have his faults and quirks? Some are simply worse than others.

[Peter]

You see this is what throws me off about Beethoven. Peter, I am sure you know more than I do about Beethoven, but do you not feel his depression and madness led to him doing cruel things. I do believe that learning about hardships and other things of that nature are important, so I could understand why Beethoven may have done some of the things he did to people, like Karl. Beethoven apparently went to far, though. But at times, from what I understand, he was just off balance. People couldn't bear his company sometimes, he made people want to leave his side, he was extremely cruel, etc.

What throws me off about Beethoven is how he writes music, in my opinion, of almost perfect sanity (clear mind, control over ones self, good perception, maturity, happiness etc.), then he does numerous and I mean numerous things that are not related to sanity but would incline more towards insanity. That shows there is something more than meets the eye in my opinion.

For instance, the Pastoral, to write of such touching feelings towards life is unbelievable, I personally don't think any other musician could express nature and life better than Beethoven.

And these words, "But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate". These words to me are like hearing the voice of God. Surely someone who can say these words about God, are very close to him. Which means unreal things.

I do not know to much about Bach but I am curious to know about what you said about him. Why do you feel he was more inclined to healing humanity (you didn't say this but I thought it was similar way of expressing what you said about Bach), etc. than Beethoven?

Kind Regards,
Preston

Preston I very much feel for Beethoven and his suffering and I understand his reasoning, but it doesn't alter the fact that it wasn't very pleasant to be on the receiving end of it - how could a child of 9 be expected to understand his problems? All karl understood was that having just lost his father he was also to be deprived of his mother. I do not consider Beethoven was mad, and I am surprised you keep referring to him as such - he was eccentric and there is a big difference. A madman does not write the greatest music ever produced on earth - a madman produces nonsense as happened to both Schumann and Wolf when they lost their reason.

Bach's music is spiritual to the core, I think Beethoven only approached this level in the late period works when I am sure God was very close to him. You can't listen to works such as the St.Matthew Passion or the B minor mass without being profoundly moved and I think changed as a person.

[HaydnFan]

I am not sure how close to God Bach was first of all but I suppose it is a matter of opinion...(or more accurately, how close to God he thought he was because along these lines, we would first have to prove the existance of a god but this is a separate argument)


But I agree with you about Beethoven, he was by no means a madman...he was unsociable yes, but if you read the Heiligenstadt Testament, he says he feels he has to withdraw from society because of his illness which is perfectly understandable.

[Preston]

I must admit, I have said all I can. I do believe y'all have more knowledge than I of Beethoven, so I will have to look into this further.

I don't, however, understand how he can write some of the most clear, mature, etc., music and then do something like beat Karl, state very seriously over and over again that his birthday wasn't his birthday (when he received his birth certificate over and over again) and say that he had an older brother named Ludwig who was born before him, state that his parents weren't his real parents for many many years (saying his Dad was the King of Prussia), be so ridiculous and confused that when his landlord bowed at him he didn't like it so he became continuously annoying by stomping all over the house and acting bizarre, walking so mindlessly down the street that it embarrassed Karl so badly that he didn't won't to walk with him, argue and get mad at a lot of things, be so cruel and temperamental, being suicidal (which from what I understand usually takes an accumulation of problems from years) etc, lots of things like these, and then write music like the 9th symphony! It is like he has a split personality. I think, not sure though, the author Edmund Morris says that he could have possible been a paranoid schizophrenic, and he is a pretty decent author from what I have read. I am not saying that Beethoven was by any means. Let me go ahead and state that is a very serious thing and I do not feel Beethoven had that. Also, I do not feel that Beethoven was some really mad guy, I feel that he may have suffered from a little madness, maybe I am wrong. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I really think it depends on the type of madness a human being has for it to effect there writing. Van Gogh was somewhat crazy from what I understand and look at what he did!!! There are so many types and ways that madness can work. Schumann, yes, he was crazy where he couldn't write music, at all. It is really quite sad, about Schumann. Also, look at what Roger Waters did when he supposedly went mad. He wrote "The Wall", about him and Syd Barrett and other types of madness!!! His most creative work to this day in my opinion. They say that madness can create creativity from what I understand. Anyways, I will stop talking about people who suffer from psychological problems.

Once again, I will continue to study this more.

[Peter]

Preston - I'd be interested to know what biographies of Beethoven you've been reading? Just to clear up a few things. Beethoven did not deny his birthday nor did he receive the baptismal certificate on 'numerous occasions' - he received it once (in his forties when he requested it). Beethoven was either unclear as to the exact year of his birth (not uncommon in those days) or it had been convenient to mislead others in his youth, much the same way Leopold Mozart had done with his son. Beethoven did not say his father was the King of Prussia, he simply didn't respond to the ridiculous rumours - he may have allowed them to circulate because he was probably ashamed of his real father who was an alcoholic and also because he liked the idea of being associated with the nobility, at worse that makes him a snob not mad! Being suicidal does not necessarily require an accumalation of problems over years, a person may take this drastic step in response to a single crisis of the moment. In Beethoven's case he was extremely depressed because of his loss of hearing which is perfectly understandable - don't forget that he didn't actually attempt suicide!

Beethoven was an eccentric man and as his deafness increased so did his eccenticities - the image most people have of the dishevelled unkempt man comes mainly from his last years when he had lost all interest in outward appearances. Karl may have been embarrassed to walk along the street with him because of his wild appearance, but another young man Gerhard Von Breuning recalls his pride at being by Beethoven's side. The saying is that genius is one step away from madness, but Beethoven never took that final step.