Beethoven vs. Mozart - VOTE HERE!

[Sorrano]

Then there are folk like Peter Schickle (I don't think I spelled that right) who are very serious composers but are better known for their buffoonery in the name of PDQ Bach.

[Preston]

Originally posted by Peter:
That Mozart enjoyed vulgar jokes in his letters (common to the whole Mozart family) does not detract from the fact he also showed great musical insight in these letters or that he wrote sublime music - indeed it shows the all too human side of genius. A few examples - Gesualdo murdered his wife, Carravagio was a violent thug wanted for murder and Bernini who is responsible for much of Baroque Rome beat his brother to a pulp and had a servant slash his mistresses face beyond recognition. Wagner wrote the most contemptible rubbish about the Jews and Beethoven frequently indulged in violent rages over the most petty things.

To me this shows that they are more geniuses at painting and making music. What I am saying is that they are not the type of geniuses who have a deeper understanding of life or science or math, but especially life, that is the most important in my opinion. They are just good at what they do.

Although, I do feel that Beethoven had a deeper understanding of life and the meaning of serious things. His temper was do to his madness in my opinion. Because some of his music is like perfect sanity. It shows that he had sanity in him. I also feel that Schubert and Handel had some of this deeper understanding of life.

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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-30-2006).]

[HaydnFan]

Preston, have a look at a work by Caravaggio and tell me he is just "good at what he does"

Just because he was a wanted murderer, it doesn't mean he didn't have a deep understanding of life...one look at his paintings tells you he very much did. The only thing that his behaviour tells you is that like so many other geniuses, he was prone to bad temper.

Preston, why do you insist on making controversial statements of opinion without any evidence to back them up? You say, "I think that..." clearly without knowing anything about which you are speaking.

Of course, it is alright to express your opinion but how you can get away with saying that the artists Peter mentioned did not have an understanding of life (and not even knowing who these people were) is beyond me.

It would be like me saying, "I think Farinelli was afraid of spiders because he was a castrato..." and of course, I know nothing of the sort.

[Preston]

Here is my evidence, and what I believe in. I have spent many years studying these things so please do not spit in my face. I consider this to be very deep and serious thoughts:

I saw his artwork, the paintings are unbelievable. The colors he uses and the way he makes them work are amazing.

I disagree with a lot of his art that I have seen. While I feel the paintings are amazing I feel they are somewhat incorrect.

It reminds me of when people draw God. They draw this muscular man with long white hair and a big white beard who is unbelievably attractive. I feel that the people that draw this are wrong. In my opinion God would be nothing like that. If God did come into human form, he would be a variety of the races of human beings. I feel he would definitely not have long hair and a beard. In my opinion he would not be attractive either.

Or when people draw angels. They make them these beautiful lustful creatures. That are naked!!!

Or when people draw Christ. They make him with long hair and look real cool. When the first drawings of Christ were with short hair, and the scientists state that Christ would have probably looked nothing like the average paintings display.

As of now, I also, don't believe that Christ was the true son of God. Only a man of genius who would have looked nothing like the pictures display him.

I also don't believe in any kind (hell or heaven) of eternal life. I believe that the sinful are turned into hell but for a certain amount of time. Although, it would still be unimaginably bad.

I don't need to know some these people perfectly to understand their sinful and sickening ways. I just need to know how they were. Some of the others beside Caravaggio, I could understand, although I don't consider them to have a deeper understanding of life. But A VIOLENT STREET THUG, no, in my opinion that is a terribly confused and sick mind. It reminds me of a gangster. Rape, murder, petifile, lust, greed, vanity, are the ways of the sinful. While people like good monks are the ways of the right and good.

Hopefully, I will eventually end up in a very real and private monastery, hopefully. Hopefully this monastery will focus around music!!!

You say that I don't know these people. Yet, you consider them to have a deeper understanding of life. So do you know them? Or are we similiar that we have our own different beliefs?

It is nothing like saying that about a singer because he was castrated.

My point is that because a person has unreal talents doesn't mean they are a genius.

Kind Regards,
Preston

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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-30-2006).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
This simply shows he had a damn good sense of humour as does the very clever Ein Musikalischer Spass K.522.

Sorry, Peter. I've never seen the hilarity regarding K.522. It just sounds like so much inept schoolboy sniggering to me, which is especially poignant since it was an apparent attempt to mock his recently-deceased father's teaching methods.

Contrast, if you will, Beethoven's brilliant, major-mode coda to his minor-mode Serioso Quartet, Op.95 - the ultimate homage to his Papa Haydn. A dazzling tribute. And sincere beyond belief.

[PDG]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
...better known for their buffoonery in the name of PDQ Bach.

Please don't bring me into this, Sorrano!

[PDG]

Originally posted by Preston:
To me this shows that they are more geniuses at painting and making music. What I am saying is that they are not the type of geniuses who have a deeper understanding of life or science or math, but especially life, that is the most important in my opinion. They are just good at what they do.

Although, I do feel that Beethoven had a deeper understanding of life and the meaning of serious things. His temper was do to his madness in my opinion. Because some of his music is like perfect sanity. It shows that he had sanity in him. I also feel that Schubert and Handel had some of this deeper understanding of life.

Hey, Preston. Don't let the deepness get you down! These were just ordinary men, extremely gifted, yes, but flesh and blood just like you and me. For what it's worth, I admire great composers above brush-strokers, any day of the week.....

[PDG]

Originally posted by Preston:
His flute and harp concerto is like warm wind to my soul.

That warm wind may be coming from a very clean place...

[HaydnFan]

No, I am NOT saying these people certainly did have a real understanding of life...I am making a point that I don't know and you don't know either...

[This message has been edited by HaydnFan (edited 10-31-2006).]

[Nightklavier]

Originally posted by Preston:
My point is that because a person has unreal talents doesn't mean they are a genius.

There is certainly a fine line between talent and genius. I, personally, like Arthur Schopenhauer's famous quote: "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see."

But how would you define "genius"?

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by PDG:
Please don't bring me into this, Sorrano!

Were you referring to the buffoonery part or the initials?

[Preston]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
No, I am NOT saying these people certainly did have a real understanding of life...I am making a point that I don't know and you don't know either...

[This message has been edited by HaydnFan (edited 10-31-2006).]

So you are saying that people can't tell good from bad, right from wrong?

You think that people can't tell about people who only care about looks and money, they obviously don't have a deeper understanding of life, or at least a true one.

Take a gangster for example, who raps about the most sickening things and stupid things (money, girls, being hard, etc.), do you think he could possibly have a true deeper understanding of life?

So you are admitting that you don't know about Mozart's or Haydn's ways. Because if you feel you do then how is it that I can't understand these people?

You think that Beethoven didn't know what he was talking about when he said he was closer to God than other artists? Take note, that he is saying it is possible to understand other artists.

I may not know everything, but I know enough.

Kind Regards (literally), and Calm Down,
Preston

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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[HaydnFan]

Chaszz, did you say you are an artist? (or at least, you know a lot about art)

Was Caravaggio a genius in your opinion despite his questionable personal life? Do you think we should separate an artist from their work? (this goes for music too).

I personally think yes, Caravaggio is a genius regardless of what he did. Just because he committed a horrible crime, it does not mean he is sick and that we should not rate him highly.

Preston, if you have studied art like I have, I am surprised you don't recognize the genius of Caravaggio...

This is how Webster's defines genius as it relates to our discussion:

b : extraordinary intellectual power especially as manifested in creative activity c : a person endowed with transcendent mental superiority; especially : a person with a very high IQ

I believe also, that there are various categories of genius which include the arts (visual and musical etc.)...would you not say Preston, that Caravaggio can fit the definition of "superior intellect with respect to creativity" regardless of his behaviour???...according to the definition, his actions outside of his creative pursuits have little if anything to do with this classification.

On what grounds then do you suppose these individuals, which Peter has mentioned, are not geniuses?

Sorry to bring this up, if it is inappropriate let me know, but I hope you are not letting your religious beliefs get in the way of judging the creative output of these men.

[HaydnFan]

Preston, I think most people here would agree that I am not the one who needs to calm down...my arguments have remained civilized and rational throughout our whole discussion while yours have gone off on "moral" tangents that seem to reflect your own uncontrollable emotions rather than logic and reason...

[Preston]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
There is certainly a fine line between talent and genius. I, personally, like Arthur Schopenhauer's famous quote: "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see."

But how would you define "genius"?

I believe that a person can be the most talented person and be an idiot.

I don't really know how I would define genius. I feel it is someone who understands things on a different level. That is what I call a life genius. There are math, science, technology, iventor, geniuses. But I feel that someone who understands about things in life like, greed, sin, what life is, what darkness is, why people are the way they are, how different people hear different things, how people look at people, why certain people are cruel, can imagine numerous things at once (feats like this), etc. etc. etc. etc. etc., a bunch of things like that, I consider to be a life genius. That is what I consider to be the greatest genius of all. It is a God like genius in my opinion.

Please do not think I am saying that I am a genius, by no means am I. I consider myself somewhat of a spiritual person, I have a lot left to learn in my life. I am not good at literature, science, math, etc. I can barely do division, lol!

HaydnFan, I still don't see how you can believe that a gangster is a true genius. I believe he can posess genius like qualities, maybe thoughts of growing up and being abused and how God would feel about that, but he is no real genius in my opinion! I absolutely hate gangsters.

I think I am through posting on this subject, there is nothing else I can say.

Preston

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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-31-2006).]