Romantic Era

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
You are wrong here I'm afraid Chaszz - to expand the form as Beethoven certainly does is not to undermine it. Beethoven is recognised as the greatest master of form, the greatest musical architect and here you are saying his music is unbalanced! In the Eroica for example, the Coda perfectly balances the development. In performance Beethoven's repeat of the Exposition should be observed to maintain the correct proportions - it rarely is.

I suggest you read the books on this by the eminent pianist and musicologist Charles Rosen - you'll find he explains it a good deal better than I am able to. It's just that he's written two of the most highly regarded and authorative books on the subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Rosen

Prof. Rosen notwithstanding, why do I get the impression when listening to the Eroica that the symphony as a form is being giganticized - exactly as Michelangelo, for instance, in his Laurentian library, takes the harmonious elements of prior Renaissance architecture and stretches them into something fantastic, very energetic, bursting the bounds of the forms, and very slightly nightmarish, where the steps seem to rush downhill like a river torrent instead of inviting one to ascend...the false windows at the top, a typical earlier device, in this case sad, lonely, expressionist:
http://www.mysharefile.com/v/932309/slide65.jpg.html

Beethoven often has this exact same quality in relation to Mozart and Haydn.

I may have got it technically wrong about emotion and form - I have ordered Rosen's "The Classical Style" up from my local library, thanks for the recommendation -- but extreme emotion was only one of the attributes I listed: rebellion, individualism, a certain amount of shock directed at the bourgousie, a determination to spread political democracy, intense idealism, extreme emotion. And as far as emotion goes, there is a sort of far-out shock value in a lot of of Beethoven - I keep thinking of those weird wonderful six chords in the Eroica 1st movement, even after 50 years I still fell the hair on the back of my neck raise when I hear to them - an individualist willfulness, which I don't hear in M, H, or JSB, even in their highly emotional passages.

And would you care to have a go at the ENTIRE collection of attributes I list above, instead of just one? Taken individually, one by one but all included, or taken together? Those attributes are all in Beethoven and also all in much of Romantic music. Once again, it is a matter of the overriding values rather than the technique.

But anyway, I look forward to reading Prof. Rosen.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 09-22-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Prof. Rosen notwithstanding, why do I get the impression when listening to the Eroica that the symphony as a form is being giganticized

If you listen to the typical post-war interpretation as I suspect is your Romantic taste - huge orchestra, playing at half tempo - maybe it is easy to get this impression. But that's not Beethoven's fault.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Prof. Rosen notwithstanding, why do I get the impression when listening to the Eroica that the symphony as a form is being giganticized - exactly as Michelangelo, for instance, in his Laurentian library, takes the harmonious elements of prior Renaissance architecture and stretches them into something fantastic, very energetic, bursting the bounds of the forms, and very slightly nightmarish, where the steps seem to rush downhill like a river torrent instead of inviting one to ascend...the false windows at the top, a typical earlier device, in this case sad, lonely, expressionist:
http://www.mysharefile.com/v/932309/slide65.jpg.html

Beethoven often has this exact same quality in relation to Mozart and Haydn.

I may have got it technically wrong about emotion and form - I have ordered Rosen's "The Classical Style" up from my local library, thanks for the recommendation -- but extreme emotion was only one of the attributes I listed: rebellion, individualism, a certain amount of shock directed at the bourgousie, a determination to spread political democracy, intense idealism, extreme emotion. And as far as emotion goes, there is a sort of far-out shock value in a lot of of Beethoven - I keep thinking of those weird wonderful six chords in the Eroica 1st movement, even after 50 years I still fell the hair on the back of my neck raise when I hear to them - an individualist willfulness, which I don't hear in M, H, or JSB, even in their highly emotional passages.

And would you care to have a go at the ENTIRE collection of attributes I list above, instead of just one? Taken individually, one by one but all included, or taken together? Those attributes are all in Beethoven and also all in much of Romantic music. Once again, it is a matter of the overriding values rather than the technique.

But anyway, I look forward to reading Prof. Rosen.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 09-22-2006).]

Chaszz I do understand your point of view on this and you are obviously not alone as many people, professional musicians amongst them feel the same way. I of course do not agree.

I know you're a die-hard Romantic (I mean this in a positive way) and I think this is where we are looking at the same thing from different angles - I'm looking at Beethoven from an 1820's perspective (as though we knew nothing of the future) and I think you're looking at him with Wagner, Bruckner and Mahler in mind, in other words retrospectively.

I'm not sure all the ideas you suggest are present in Beethoven or indeed all the Romantics - I don't think Chopin, Brahms, Dvorak or Tchaikovsky for example fit this very well. As for Beethoven's view of democracy that is debatable - he admired the British system which was far from truly democratic even though it pretended to be (not much change there!).

Leaving that aside I am very pleased you have ordered the Rosen book (not many people normally take my advice, pupils not withstanding!) - you will find it offers great insight into the Classical style and Beethoven's expansion of form. You still may not be convinced but you will be enriched.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-22-2006).]

[robert newman]

Rod is quite right to say Handel never went through Bach's wastepaper baskets. Such a malicious report, yes ! Everyone knows he threw away the contents of Bach's wastepaper baskets and used only the baskets. (Ha !)

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Rod is quite right to say Handel never went through Bach's wastepaper baskets. Such a malicious report, yes ! Everyone knows he threw away the contents of Bach's wastepaper baskets and used only the baskets. (Ha !)

If so, what good, solid and tasteful baskets Bach did own. Pity he never used them himself!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[robert newman]

Well, Rod, Bach rarely needed to use rubbish bins for his writings.

Regards

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Well, Rod, Bach rarely needed to use rubbish bins for his writings.

Regards

I suggest on occasion he should have looked. At least he had the good judgment to write out half of the score of Handel's Brockes Passion. I wonder which basket he found that in?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[sunset_887]

so what are these advanced forms? do you mean for example the sonata, different amount of movements..sometimes even two, and the adding the scherzo? or?

Originally posted by Rod:
I've never though of Beethoven as a musical Romantic. His 'sentiment' (I emphasis this) is not typically classical either to my mind, but looking back even earlier (whatever the Beethoven period we are considering). Which I why I sometimes call him a Quasi-Baroque Classisist. Add a touch of the French spirit and there you have the whole package. Of course the Classical structures are developed to their most advanced form with Beethoven.