Romantic Era

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:


There is no precise time when these creative periods began or ended and it would miss the point to be dogmatic on such issues. We can only speak in general terms. But that Beethoven was greatly interested in romanticism is surely true. Just as he was interested in the baroque. Even in attempting to synthesise various styles and forms.

Indeed it is true that musical styles overlap but the evidence with Beethoven regarding Romanticism is that he generally was not impressed - the undermining of the tonic triad (sacred to classical music) was evident in the music of Spohr and Beethoven found his chromatic melody dissonant (it was a major part of the new style arising in the 1830's). Beethoven's chromaticism is always integrated within a firm diatonic structure.

Before Rod claims this as a victory we have to remember the style was in embryonic form at that time and he never knew the music of Chopin or Schumann.

All these people claiming Beethoven as some kind of early Romantic should ask themselves why he was so out of fashion in the 1820s? Yes he was respected and admired, but the new generation were not greatly influenced by the late works in particular.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Peter:
Indeed it is true that musical styles overlap but the evidence with Beethoven regarding Romanticism is that he generally was not impressed - the undermining of the tonic triad (sacred to classical music) was evident in the music of Spohr and Beethoven found his chromatic melody dissonant (it was a major part of the new style arising in the 1830's). Beethoven's chromaticism is always integrated within a firm diatonic structure.

Before Rod claims this as a victory we have to remember the style was in embryonic form at that time and he never knew the music of Chopin or Schumann.

All these people claiming Beethoven as some kind of early Romantic should ask themselves why he was so out of fashion in the 1820s? Yes he was respected and admired, but the new generation were not greatly influenced by the late works in particular.

I fully agree with what you write. But the enigmatic thing about Beethoven is that nevertheless, he has been an important source of inspiration to the Romantic movement - Chopin, Schuman, Berlioz, etc. all played his works; or read the lyrical reviews by E.T.A Hoffmann - while he was a curse at the same time - think of Brahms and how much he hated his first symphony to be called Beethoven's tenth. Beethoven's ninth was ideologically misused by
Wagner, but it *was* highly influential to Wagner's generation.

[robert newman]

But it can equally be argued that romanticism was more a matter of style than of substance.

Who can seriously doubt that 'Fur Elise' is a romantic composition of Ludwig van Beethoven ?

The difficulty is sometimes not in making a point but in avoiding dogmatism.

Rod might care to define 'romanticism' in music ? I suppose we will not agree on his definition but it would at least be interesting to know on what it is actually based. I say that 'Fur Elise' is romantic for the simple reason that, to listeners, it is open-hearted and sentimental music. Such music, stylistically, is romantic.



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 09-19-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
I say that 'Fur Elise' is romantic for the simple reason that, to listeners, it is open-hearted and sentimental music. Such music, stylistically, is romantic.

Yes but sentimentality is being confused with Romanticism and in using the word in that way the music of Mozart can be described as Romantic - take the slow movements of the A major and C major Piano Concertos. Indeed Haydn and Mozart were referred to as Romantic composers in their day.

The stylistic difference is the important factor and Beethoven actually became more classical as he got older. It is difficult to explain without being technical but the increase in tension implied by the Tonic-Dominant relationship (Beethoven often substitues this for the mediant) is present in all major Beethoven (Classical) works, but the opposite is the case with the Romantics - a decrease in tension by using the subdominant as the secondary tonality.

The last works are this fusion of Baroque and Classical elements whereas some of the early works do display some Romantic tendencies, particularly the slow movements of the sonatas or a work such as Adelaide.



------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Frankli:
I fully agree with what you write. But the enigmatic thing about Beethoven is that nevertheless, he has been an important source of inspiration to the Romantic movement - Chopin, Schuman, Berlioz, etc. all played his works; or read the lyrical reviews by E.T.A Hoffmann - while he was a curse at the same time - think of Brahms and how much he hated his first symphony to be called Beethoven's tenth. Beethoven's ninth was ideologically misused by
Wagner, but it *was* highly influential to Wagner's generation.

Well Chopin described Beethoven in these terms "Beethoven turned his back on eternal principles".

Charles Rosen sums up this so-called influence: "Both Mendelssohn and Brahms imitated the Hammerklavier with singularly awkward results. The sonatas and symphonies of Schumann are constantly embarrassed by the example of Beethoven: their splendour breaks through his influence, but never starts from it. All that is most interesting in the next generation is a reaction against Beethoven, or an attempt to ignore him, a turning away into new directions: all that is weakest submits to his power and pays him the emptiest and most sincere of homages."

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-19-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
That is far from the truth Rod and you have to accept your bias against the music is behind this! Just a little prelude such as Chopin's E minor is a good example.

I'm afriad it IS the truth Peter, I have no bias. Everything I have heard from the Romatic era (including Schubert too when he is in this, of his many, mode) is at best mere simulation. It is pure art for art's sake and nothing more - thus it can never be profound. Do not denounce me because I can tell the fake from the real deal. I hope you guys never work in a art gallery!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well Chopin described Beethoven in these terms "Beethoven turned his back on eternal principles".

Charles Rosen sums up this so-called influence: "Both Mendelssohn and Brahms imitated the Hammerklavier with singularly awkward results. The sonatas and symphonies of Schumann are constantly embarrassed by the example of Beethoven: their splendour breaks through his influence, but never starts from it. All that is most interesting in the next generation is a reaction against Beethoven, or an attempt to ignore him, a turning away into new directions: all that is weakest submits to his power and pays him the emptiest and most sincere of homages."

I can relate to this - a simulation as I have said, or a reaction against. Neither good. No advancement resulted because the composers were just not as good as Beethoven. Deal with it guys please.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-19-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'm afriad it IS the truth Peter, I have no bias. Everything I have heard from the Romatic era (including Schubert too when he is in this, of his many, mode) is at best mere simulation. It is pure art for art's sake and nothing more - thus it can never be profound. Do not denounce me because I can tell the fake from the real deal. I hope you guys never work in a art gallery!

It remains YOUR opinion which you are of course entitled to - what you're not entitled to is to claim superiority of judgement over everyone else - some of us with a little more humility recognise that we're not always right. I am not particularly fond of Schoenberg or AC/DC but I respect the views of those who are without belittling their musical judgement.

Your total dismissal of all Romantic music as at best 2nd rate displays to my mind a very narrow approach - but that is just MY opinion.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
It remains YOUR opinion which you are of course entitled to - what you're not entitled to is to claim superiority of judgement over everyone else - some of us with a little more humility recognise that we're not always right. I am not particularly fond of Schoenberg or AC/DC but I respect the views of those who are without belittling their musical judgement.

Your total dismissal of all Romantic music as at best 2nd rate displays to my mind a very narrow approach - but that is just MY opinion.

With respect Peter, with your own track record you are not an angel when it comes to humility...

"That is far from the truth Rod and you have to accept your bias against the music is behind this!"

This is a typical comment from you. I don't think of Rock music and Beethoven in quite the same mindset.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-19-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well Chopin described Beethoven in these terms "Beethoven turned his back on eternal principles".

Nevertheless he studied Beethoven's pianoworks, and learned from them. His verdict was probably aimed at Beethoven's output from the last years.

Charles Rosen sums up this so-called influence: "Both Mendelssohn and Brahms imitated the Hammerklavier with singularly awkward results. The sonatas and symphonies of Schumann are constantly embarrassed by the example of Beethoven: their splendour breaks through his influence, but never starts from it. All that is most interesting in the next generation is a reaction against Beethoven, or an attempt to ignore him, a turning away into new directions: all that is weakest submits to his power and pays him the emptiest and most sincere of homages."

But that's what I call "enigmatic" about Beethoven's influence, and why I call it a curse. Nobody could ignore Beethoven's influence.
I guess that your source here is Rosen's book about the Romantic generation? Beethoven is mentioned 200 to 300 times in the register, so that alone proves how important Beethoven was to that "generation".

[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-19-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Frankli:
I guess that your source here is Rosen's book about the Romantic generation? Beethoven is mentioned 200 to 300 times in the register, so that alone proves how important Beethoven was to that "generation".

[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-19-2006).]

No it was the other one about the Classical style but I take your point!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
I can relate to this - a simulation as I have said, or a reaction against. Neither good. No advancement resulted because the composers were just not as good as Beethoven. Deal with it guys please.

In my view it was not just Beethoven which caused the problem. It was also the very nature of the romantic style, which made an end to creativity concerning sonata form etc.,and which was a dead end. Schoenberg didn't come out of the blue!

Nevertheless, it's not really important who is/was "best". If you love to hear nocturnes, you listen to Chopin, not to Beethoven.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
In my view it was not just Beethoven which caused the problem. It was also the very nature of the romantic style, which made an end to creativity concerning sonata form etc.,and which was a dead end. Schoenberg didn't come out of the blue!

Nevertheless, it's not really important who is/was "best". If you love to hear nocturnes, you listen to Chopin, not to Beethoven.

Of course there does not have to be just one style. But even at the end Beethoven never really left the classical forms. There is a good reason for this.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-19-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
Of course there does not have to be just one style. But even at the Beethoven never really left the classical forms. There is a good reason for this.

Yes, I agree. Also the fact that in order to expand his ways to expression, he went back rather than ahead, to Baroque and even Renaissance style elements.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Yes, I agree. Also the fact that in order to expand his ways to expression, he went back rather than ahead, to Baroque and even Renaissance style elements.

I agree, at the end he was even further away from the Romantic sentiment than he was during his 'first period'.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin