Violin C'to Improvisation

[~Leslie]

That's right PDG. And some soloists have been known to spend far too much time feeding the ducks, regardless of nationality,.....instead of taking the responsibility of the cadenza performance seriously.~

[PDG]

Quite so, duckie. It's enough to drive you quackers.

[Peter]

Originally posted by NickB:
At what point should a professional concert violinist deem himself
worthy of IMPROVING upon Beethoven's concerto? Surely, he should be
able to play the concerto perfectly, before taking it upon himself to
compose and perform his own cadenzas--the first movement, the gap
before the rondo, dand the cadenza in the rondo--yes???

It's no accident that in the Emperor concerto the cadenza is an integral part of the work (this set a precedent for later composers). Beethoven had obviously had enough of other people inserting their own worthless ideas into his compositions - the same year (1809) he wrote cadenzas for his other piano concertos as well. Too often the cadenza wrecks a concerto and I sit there dreading the inevitable 6/4 chord that brings the orchestra to a halt. I think violinists are worse than pianists when it comes to this as they try to insert every technical trick they possess, inflicting octaves , double stopping, pizziccato, harmonics and glissandi on us!

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

On the whole, I agree, although it should be noted that many, if not most pianists still avoid Beethoven's own cadenzas when performing concertos 1 & 2. Pollini does use B's cadenzas for these works, on Deutsche Grammophon (447 908-2).

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
On the whole, I agree, although it should be noted that many, if not most pianists still avoid Beethoven's own cadenzas when performing concertos 1 & 2. Pollini does use B's cadenzas for these works, on Deutsche Grammophon (447 908-2).

Yet the cadenza for no.2 in particular is superb!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
On the whole, I agree, although it should be noted that many, if not most pianists still avoid Beethoven's own cadenzas when performing concertos 1 & 2.

Even many of the authentic performers don't, their reason being B's cadenzas for 1 & 2 are not stylistically appropriate (ie being too grand for B's earlier conception of these works) but also in this case I think the cadenzas go beyond the reach of the 5 octave pianos that are classed as the most authentic models.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
I only have the disc with WoO 38 & Hess 48. It's okay. The best bargain I've found is the Trio Italiano playing all 6 trios plus the op.44 & op.121a variations, on 3 very long DDD CDs, for around just £10 (ARTS 47249-2, 47250-2, 47251-2).

The Jando sonatas are great value, but I question some of his tempos. With his Hammerklavier, for example, I think he takes the first movement too slowly, & the slow mvt too quickly. What say you? His opp.109/110/111 disc is a knockout, though.

I can recommend the Italiano set, they cost just £5.99 each here in London, good sound. Jando is very 'hit and miss' (sometimes very dynamic, sometimes very lame) but Naxos is cheap and he has recorded stuff you won't find elsewhere outside of the complete works edition, so he's good for B music collectors (eg his latest 3 disks of dances and bagatelles. It is this rare stuff I buy on Naxos.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
I can recommend the Italiano set, they cost just £5.99 each here in London, good sound. Jando is very 'hit and miss' (sometimes very dynamic, sometimes very lame) but Naxos is cheap and he has recorded stuff you won't find elsewhere outside of the complete works edition, so he's good for B music collectors (eg his latest 3 disks of dances and bagatelles. It is this rare stuff I buy on Naxos.

I'd like to know why string players (including the Italianos) usually struggle to convey the transitional chord before the finale of the Archduke, well. I've not seen the score, but cello & violin always seem too tentative, the net result being an almost ambiguously harmonic chord. Why do they struggle with it? What notes are they playing?

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

The two bars you refer to are part of the finale and preceeded by the marking 'attacca' which means without a break. The chord is the dominant 7th of Eb which implies the key of Eb (the wrong key, since this movement is in Bb).In the second bar, the strings play the chord sforzando and off the beat. Beethoven delays resolving this chord for 6 bars (if you count the last bar of the 3rd movement)and doesn't give us the tonic key of Bb until bar 10 which creates the harmonic ambiguity you mentioned - it is deliberate!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-25-2001).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
The two bars you refer to are part of the finale and preceeded by the marking 'attacca' which means without a break. The chord is the dominant 7th of Eb which implies the key of Eb (the wrong key, since this movement is in Bb).In the second bar, the strings play the chord sforzando and off the beat. Beethoven delays resolving this chord for 6 bars (if you count the last bar of the 3rd movement)and doesn't give us the tonic key of Bb until bar 10 which creates the harmonic ambiguity you mentioned - it is deliberate!

No, no! We're not talking about the same passage! I'm talking about the transition between the 3rd & 4th movements. I'm not at the piano now, but I mean the point where the closing Andante D major moves to B flat 7th; it's THAT pause, immediately before the bars to which you refer, which, btw, sound perfectly fine to me! My guess as to why it's difficult to pull off that pause is that the strings are very exposed, & the sudden, unusual chord change (D to B flat) is problematical.

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
No, no! We're not talking about the same passage! I'm talking about the transition between the 3rd & 4th movements. I'm not at the piano now, but I mean the point where the closing Andante D major moves to B flat 7th; it's THAT pause, immediately before the bars to which you refer, which, btw, sound perfectly fine to me! My guess as to why it's difficult to pull off that pause is that the strings are very exposed, & the sudden, unusual chord change (D to B flat) is problematical.

There is no pause marked. The harmonic ambiguity is still caused by the lack of resolution which should go to Eb. The dominant 7th chord comes as a tremendous surprise.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
There is no pause marked. The harmonic ambiguity is still caused by the lack of resolution which should go to Eb. The dominant 7th chord comes as a tremendous surprise.

There may be no pause marked (I didn't know this), but all ensembles certainly slow down before launching into the finale. The only harmonic ambiguity I hear occurs when the violin & the cello seem out of tune with one another on that first B flat bar, immediately after the D major chord which closes the Andante. This is the passage which interests me. What you're referring to as an harmonic ambiguity, I would call a cunning Beethoven trick!

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
There may be no pause marked (I didn't know this), but all ensembles certainly slow down before launching into the finale. The only harmonic ambiguity I hear occurs when the violin & the cello seem out of tune with one another on that first B flat bar, immediately after the D major chord which closes the Andante. This is the passage which interests me. What you're referring to as an harmonic ambiguity, I would call a cunning Beethoven trick!

I think the slowing down is also a trick as the piano has notes on every beat of the bar up until the last two bars when the piano plays only the first beats of each bar. Some ensembles may do a rit here, but it isn't marked. The spacing of that first Bb7 chord has the 'cello high on F between the violin's Bb and Ab.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
The spacing of that first Bb7 chord has the 'cello high on F between the violin's Bb and Ab.

Thanks, this is what I wanted to know; it's difficult to detect all the notes just by listening. Maybe the discordant effect I hear is caused by the cello playing F against the A flat of the violin.

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
Thanks, this is what I wanted to know; it's difficult to detect all the notes just by listening. Maybe the discordant effect I hear is caused by the cello playing F against the A flat of the violin.

It isn't discordant - the chord is a simple dominant 7th. The effect is caused simply by the 'cello playing that high F out of the blue - for several bars prior to this the 'cello part plays the tonic note D in the same register as the piano and then it leaps up to that F. I bet you're not bothered by the first few bars of the 4th movement, yet B uses exactly the same chord and spacing as he does on that first dominant 7th chord.

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'Man know thyself'