Violin C'to Improvisation

[NickB]

At what point should a professional concert violinist deem himself
worthy of IMPROVING upon Beethoven's concerto? Surely, he should be
able to play the concerto perfectly, before taking it upon himself to
compose and perform his own cadenzas--the first movement, the gap
before the rondo, dand the cadenza in the rondo--yes???

Tonight I paid top-dollar for excellent seats at the local symphony
to see Brahms Symphony 3 and B's Concerto. The Symphony was fine,
and generally speaking, the B performance by the orchestra was the
best B playing I can recall of theirs in years.

But the soloist, one Joshua Bell, a 32 Y.O. American who has been
the dandy of the American media as much as any classical musician has
been recently, WRECKED the concerto for me. It would have been one
thing for JB to have over-acted his part--swinging and swaying to the
orchestral passages, emphasizing his every note with lurching,
etc.--if he had played the parts well. But...all his over-acting
seemed to cause him to squeak notes a few times, and his attempts to
dramatize certain passages for effect by speeding up the start of a
run up a scale didn't work, because his subsequent slowing down to
keep in time with the orchestra just flopped.

But that's not all. This dandy (sorry, the image of Beethoven's
dandy brother discussed here recently just wouldn't leave my mind)
thought that his cadenzas were sufficiently good to replace B's.
I'm sorry that I'm at a loss to describe them, except to say that
they ANGERED me. I didn't want to hear this kid's ideas of what
B would want us to hear with his concerto. All the showing off at
the expense of the masterpiece...very disappointing.

Of course, the audience leapt to their feet IMMEDIATELY at the end,
and the ovations included whistles and shouts. We remained seated,
probably the only people who did so in the entire first row.

I have seen other lesser-known performers do a better job of the
concerto, who didn't improvise, who didn't think they should try to
deliver a different or better message than B provided.

How often do performers improvise B's cadenza's?

Sorry for rambling...

NP: The Complete Overtures/Masur/Philips

[Peter]

The trouble with the Violin concerto is that Beethoven only wrote cadenzas for the piano version - In 1809 he went through a 'cadenza phase' providing cadenzas not only for all his piano concertos but Mozart's Dminor K.466 as well. The cadenzas for the piano version of Op.61 are highly original and have been succesfully adapted for violin - surely this adapted version of the cadenzas is nearer to B's intentions than anyone else can hope to come up with.

I have your Massur recommendation of the overtures, and they are good, except I do not like the hurried opening of 'The consecration of the House' in this version.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

The cadenzas for the piano version of Op.61 are highly original and have been succesfully adapted for violin - surely this adapted version of the cadenzas is nearer to B's intentions than anyone else can hope to come up with.

And the adaption (retaining the duet with the timpani) is literally light years ahead of any efforts I've heard that were solely the product of the soloist's invention. This cadenza emphasises the martial nature of the concerto itself like nothing else, but what we typically hear is a gypsy romance!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Serge]

I am a fan of Bell's. On his albums, at least, he performs very virtuosically and cleanly. I have yet to see him in concert, but this is a sobering warning! I won't mind if he "acts" to the music; that is in my mind just a sign of the performer's enthusiasm. If Bell takes passages and modifies them for effect that could be more distracting than is appropriate, but I'd have to hear for myself. A change is as good as a rest as they say, and it seems the rest of the audience really enjoyed what they heard. Nick, would you be able to post here the review of the concert as written in your local newspaper (once available), or just a paraphrase? We could see how the music critic took to it.

[PDG]

I think the most effective cadenzas for the Violin Concerto were supplied by Fritz Kreisler; I believe these are the most widely used in performances.

Re. the point about audiences going into raptures at the end of concerts, I really think that it's a case of people believing they have to go over the top like this: Expensive tickets = Indifferent performance = Wild applause. That's the ABC. The mindset of people seems to be that they've had good value for money so long as they show their appreciation, rather than appreciate the show!

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PDG (Peter)

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PDG:
I think the most effective cadenzas for the Violin Concerto were supplied by Fritz Kreisler; I believe these are the most widely used in performances.

I still think the transcriptions of B's own cadenzas from the piano version are infinitely preferable

[b]Re. the point about audiences going into raptures at the end of concerts, I really think that it's a case of people believing they have to go over the top like this: Expensive tickets = Indifferent performance = Wild applause. That's the ABC. The mindset of people seems to be that they've had good value for money so long as they show their appreciation, rather than appreciate the show!



It didn't always used to be like this - In less politically correct ages, people said what they thought! Remember the accounts of applause interupting the scherzo of the 9th when the timpani played - also of course at the other end of the spectrum was the fiasco surrounding Stravinsky's the Rite of Spring.


[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-21-2001).]

[NickB]

Originally posted by Peter:
Originally posted by PDG:
I think the most effective cadenzas for the Violin Concerto were supplied by Fritz Kreisler; I believe these are the most widely used in performances.

I was not aware of this.

Originally posted by Peter:
I still think the transcriptions of B's own cadenzas from the piano version are infinitely preferable

I will have to get a recording of this--can anyone recommend one?

Peter:
Re. the point about audiences going into raptures at the end of concerts, I really think that it's a case of people believing they have to go over the top like this: Expensive tickets = Indifferent performance = Wild applause.

The Oregon Symphony's audience has long held a reputation for over-playing their role.

Peter:
That's the ABC. The mindset of people seems to be that they've had good value for money so long as they show their appreciation, rather than appreciate the show!

To be fair to my fellow concert-goers, they may simply not understand the music they are observing as well as we do.


[This message has been edited by NickB (edited 05-22-2001).]

[NickB]

Originally posted by Serge:
I am a fan of Bell's. On his albums, at least, he performs very virtuosically and cleanly. I have yet to see him in concert, but this is a sobering warning!

Please take my warning with a grain of salt; I haven't seen THAT many live performances of it, and perhaps I have succumbed to selective memory of the prior concerts and soloists.

I wouldn't mind if he "acts" to the music; that is in my mind just a sign of the performer's enthusiasm.

True, of course.

If Bell takes passages and modifies them for effect that could be more distracting than is appropriate, but I'd have to hear for myself.

That is exactly what I think he did, but I may have been being overly hard on him.

A change is as good as a rest as they say, and it seems the rest of the audience really enjoyed what they heard. Nick, would you be able to post here the review of the concert as written in your local newspaper (once available), or just a paraphrase? We could see how the music critic took to it.

Absolutely, and I hope the better of the local critics was there--and on the same night I was!

[~Leslie]

Concerto par Clemenza pour Clement, primo violino e direttore al theatro di Vienna Dal L.v.Bthvn

A cheeky license for Franz Clement to take it away no doubt, from the maestro, himself. Even the beginning five quarter note motif seems to lend itself wide open to improvisation.
According to some, the score was not completed until the last minute, and Clement without a final rehearsal, had to sight- read it, an amazing feat, if it actually happened that way. Furthermore, I am actually
smiling to read that Franz also indulged in Jimi Hendrix - type theatrics during the performance, by playing a fantasia of his own, holding the violin upside down.

However so, I still think this concerto asks for discernment in expression. Over the top bombastic attempts, taking lengthy embellished passages that do not concur with the orchestra, makes me wonder if this performer was just simply having an off nite.

It's also ashame that I wasn't able to attend this, as I am just across the river, or I might have been able to back you up on that review, Nick. ~

[PDG]

Originally posted by NickB:
I will have to get a recording of this--can anyone recommend one?

The piano version of the Violin Concerto, along with a fine recording of the Triple Concerto, is on Naxos: 8.554288 - 79 DDD minutes for about £4!

[NickB]

Originally posted by ~Leslie:
...
It's also ashame that I wasn't able to attend this, as I am just across the river, or I might have been able to back you up on that review, Nick. ~

Indeed--you must be in Vancouver, yes?

Here's a large excerpt from today's review in the local paper, though unfortunately, it is of the Monday night performance, whereas I attended the Saturday:

"His presence is simultaneously commanding and detached. During his
performance Monday night of the Beethoven Violin Concerto, Bell
slowly turned around first one way and then the other, sometimes
seeming to make eye contact with the orchestra and sometimes just
taking in the scene with a curious distractedness. It was not unlike
Thelonius Monk's habit of blissfully spinning like a dervish in slow
motion, dramatizing the rotation of his own private world."

"Bell's playing has some of the same qualities. At times he's
intensely focused, and at others it seems almost as though he's
having an out-of-body experience listening to himself play. The
trait lends a mercurial quality to his sound: It's assured, often
sweet and rarely full-blooded, but it changes colors like a
chameleon."

"Bell is noted for composing his own cadenzas (the solo riffs in
concertos) for the violin war horses, and they were indeed as
distinctive as he is. The first cadenza in the Beethoven sounded
something like a Paganini caprice with a whiff of bluegrass, though
to be fair it was more musical than one would expect from Paganini.
It included the expected thrills: multiple stops, breakneck runs
and intriguing bits of counterpoint. But it had deeper interest as
well, almost as though Bell had taken a variety of ideas about the
entire work and compressed them into a dense and dazzling display.
You wouldn't mistake it for Beethoven's own; like Bell, the cadenza
was both in the piece and somehow out of it."

The entire review is at http://www.oregonlive.com/entertainment/
oregonian/index.ssf?/ music/oregonian/al_41bell23.frame



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-27-2001).]

[NickB]

Originally posted by PDG:
The piano version of the Violin Concerto, along with a fine recording of the Triple Concerto, is on Naxos: 8.554288 - 79 DDD minutes for about £4!

Another excellent deal--another benefit of posting here! I'll be buying this one ASAP,
thanks.

I have the Naxos set of piano sonatas by Jeno Jando, which I generally like. I'm considering the Naxos set of piano trios, does anyone have an opinion on them? ($20 for the entire set.)

[~Leslie]

Yes, Vancouver. <g>

Funny how the reviewer wrote that Bell dipped down inside the piece, then became somehow out of it. At first, when read this description, I thought he meant that the soloist really dug down inside the harmony, and then "floated above it", a problem with improvisors, that is, for that moment, they are not really telling a story, just kind of rambling scales and notes.

However, the reviewer gives him far more creative credit than that, in fact, he seems to convey that the cadenzas were a super showcase of chops designed to blow the audiences socks off. It had to have been a real shocker, as well as a striking contrast to the Brahms performance.

A whiff of bluegrass? Where's this boy from, Kentucky?

Swirling like Monk? At least he wasn't groaning like Jarrett.

Arrrrrrrrggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!

How did I miss this concert???????????~


[This message has been edited by ~Leslie (edited 05-24-2001).]

[PDG]

That's not Vancouver in Canada, folks. Canadian ducks are different to American ones, so somebody once told me. Although I can't remember who.........

[PDG]

Originally posted by NickB:

I have the Naxos set of piano sonatas by Jeno Jando, which I generally like. I'm considering the Naxos set of piano trios, does anyone have an opinion on them? ($20 for the entire set.)

I only have the disc with WoO 38 & Hess 48. It's okay. The best bargain I've found is the Trio Italiano playing all 6 trios plus the op.44 & op.121a variations, on 3 very long DDD CDs, for around just £10 (ARTS 47249-2, 47250-2, 47251-2).

The Jando sonatas are great value, but I question some of his tempos. With his Hammerklavier, for example, I think he takes the first movement too slowly, & the slow mvt too quickly. What say you? His opp.109/110/111 disc is a knockout, though.

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PDG (Peter)