That's right PDG. And some soloists have been known to spend far too much time feeding the ducks, regardless of nationality,.....instead of taking the responsibility of the cadenza performance seriously.~
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Violin C'to Improvisation
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Originally posted by NickB:
At what point should a professional concert violinist deem himself
worthy of IMPROVING upon Beethoven's concerto? Surely, he should be
able to play the concerto perfectly, before taking it upon himself to
compose and perform his own cadenzas--the first movement, the gap
before the rondo, dand the cadenza in the rondo--yes???
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'
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Originally posted by PDG:
On the whole, I agree, although it should be noted that many, if not most pianists still avoid Beethoven's own cadenzas when performing concertos 1 & 2. Pollini does use B's cadenzas for these works, on Deutsche Grammophon (447 908-2).
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'
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Originally posted by PDG:
On the whole, I agree, although it should be noted that many, if not most pianists still avoid Beethoven's own cadenzas when performing concertos 1 & 2.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
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Originally posted by PDG:
I only have the disc with WoO 38 & Hess 48. It's okay. The best bargain I've found is the Trio Italiano playing all 6 trios plus the op.44 & op.121a variations, on 3 very long DDD CDs, for around just £10 (ARTS 47249-2, 47250-2, 47251-2).
The Jando sonatas are great value, but I question some of his tempos. With his Hammerklavier, for example, I think he takes the first movement too slowly, & the slow mvt too quickly. What say you? His opp.109/110/111 disc is a knockout, though.
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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
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Originally posted by Rod:
I can recommend the Italiano set, they cost just £5.99 each here in London, good sound. Jando is very 'hit and miss' (sometimes very dynamic, sometimes very lame) but Naxos is cheap and he has recorded stuff you won't find elsewhere outside of the complete works edition, so he's good for B music collectors (eg his latest 3 disks of dances and bagatelles. It is this rare stuff I buy on Naxos.
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PDG (Peter)
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The two bars you refer to are part of the finale and preceeded by the marking 'attacca' which means without a break. The chord is the dominant 7th of Eb which implies the key of Eb (the wrong key, since this movement is in Bb).In the second bar, the strings play the chord sforzando and off the beat. Beethoven delays resolving this chord for 6 bars (if you count the last bar of the 3rd movement)and doesn't give us the tonic key of Bb until bar 10 which creates the harmonic ambiguity you mentioned - it is deliberate!
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'Man know thyself'
[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-25-2001).]'Man know thyself'
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Originally posted by Peter:
The two bars you refer to are part of the finale and preceeded by the marking 'attacca' which means without a break. The chord is the dominant 7th of Eb which implies the key of Eb (the wrong key, since this movement is in Bb).In the second bar, the strings play the chord sforzando and off the beat. Beethoven delays resolving this chord for 6 bars (if you count the last bar of the 3rd movement)and doesn't give us the tonic key of Bb until bar 10 which creates the harmonic ambiguity you mentioned - it is deliberate!
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PDG (Peter)
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Originally posted by PDG:
No, no! We're not talking about the same passage! I'm talking about the transition between the 3rd & 4th movements. I'm not at the piano now, but I mean the point where the closing Andante D major moves to B flat 7th; it's THAT pause, immediately before the bars to which you refer, which, btw, sound perfectly fine to me! My guess as to why it's difficult to pull off that pause is that the strings are very exposed, & the sudden, unusual chord change (D to B flat) is problematical.
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'
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Originally posted by Peter:
There is no pause marked. The harmonic ambiguity is still caused by the lack of resolution which should go to Eb. The dominant 7th chord comes as a tremendous surprise.
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PDG (Peter)
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Originally posted by PDG:
There may be no pause marked (I didn't know this), but all ensembles certainly slow down before launching into the finale. The only harmonic ambiguity I hear occurs when the violin & the cello seem out of tune with one another on that first B flat bar, immediately after the D major chord which closes the Andante. This is the passage which interests me. What you're referring to as an harmonic ambiguity, I would call a cunning Beethoven trick!
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'
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Originally posted by Peter:
The spacing of that first Bb7 chord has the 'cello high on F between the violin's Bb and Ab.
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PDG (Peter)
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Originally posted by PDG:
Thanks, this is what I wanted to know; it's difficult to detect all the notes just by listening. Maybe the discordant effect I hear is caused by the cello playing F against the A flat of the violin.
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'
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