Moscheles' Fidelio Arrangement?

[Nightklavier]

Sorry for yet another piano arrangement thread (I started a string quartet one), but hey, I like Beethoven on the piano. In my search for piano arrangements/transcriptions I happened to find a CD with a four-hand piano arrangement of the Fidelio overture. Doing a little bit more research, I discovered Ignaz Moscheles (1794-1870), with Beethoven's consent, made a piano arrangement of Fidelio. They (Beethoven and Moscheles) even met and discussed the score, so I'm curious to find a recording.

Obviously I can't find one in America, so I'm wondering if anyone here has heard/seen this arrangement in England or elsewhere in Europe?

[Peter]

I'm not sure about a recording but when it was published in 1816 by Artaria it appeared without Moscheles's name, however he was credited in another edition the same year. Beethoven kept a close eye on his work and made several changes. Although a correspondence developed between the two men and despite Mosheles's great admiration for Beethoven, Beethoven himself thought little of Mosheles as a pianist describing him as 'a mere player of passages'.

Schindler later became quite hostile to Moscheles after Beethoven's death and went as far as this: 'Beethoven's hatred for the children of Israel who were active in the arts....intent on gaining the most lucrative gain from them' - a remark that more likely reflects Schindler's own apparent ani-semetism.

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'Man know thyself'

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
Sorry for yet another piano arrangement thread (I started a string quartet one), but hey, I like Beethoven on the piano. In my search for piano arrangements/transcriptions I happened to find a CD with a four-hand piano arrangement of the Fidelio overture. Doing a little bit more research, I discovered Ignaz Moscheles (1794-1870), with Beethoven's consent, made a piano arrangement of Fidelio. They (Beethoven and Moscheles) even met and discussed the score, so I'm curious to find a recording.

Obviously I can't find one in America, so I'm wondering if anyone here has heard/seen this arrangement in England or elsewhere in Europe?

Dear NightKlavier;

I have 2 arrangements of "Fidelio" for piano and voices. They were published by Peters of Liepzig with no mention of who the arranger was. I tend to believe that they are "in house" publications.

By the way, Moscheles' great-grandson is alive and living in England, and he is quite an expert on his great-grandfather. I have written him on several occasions concerning other matters.


Hofrat

[Peter]

That's very interesting Hofrat about the great-grandson - thanks for sharing! (I hope he doesn't read that bit I wrote about Beethoven's opinions of his playing!) Incidentally I have a biography of him by Emile Smidak which recalls what a generous spirit he was. I need to re-read as it's been a long time!

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'Man know thyself'

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Peter:
That's very interesting Hofrat about the great-grandson - thanks for sharing! (I hope he doesn't read that bit I wrote about Beethoven's opinions of his playing!) Incidentally I have a biography of him by Emile Smidak which recalls what a generous spirit he was. I need to re-read as it's been a long time!

Dear Peter;

I have just written to the great-grandson to enquire whether Beethoven or Schindler made that antisemitic remark.


Hofrat

[Nightklavier]

Wow, Moscheles' great-grandson? Very fascinating, Hofrat. If you write him again, maybe you could also inquire if he knows of any recording of the Moscheles arrangement of Fidelio? I'm intrigued by the possibility of a decent piano arrangement.

Moscheles is no slouch at the piano. His Etudes (Op. 95 and 111) are highly original and can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Henselt's, Alkan's, and even Liszt's. I also have numerous fantasias from him on Paganini and operatic themes. In one fantasy he ingeniously weaves at least 8 themes from different operas into a concise piece, with smooth transitions and some fine pianistic and I dare say "orchestral" effects. I have no doubt it showcases his improvisatory powers.

Therefore I have high hopes that such a skilled pianist could arrange a stellar piano score of Fidelio... Now to find it :\

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Peter;

I have just written to the great-grandson to enquire whether Beethoven or Schindler made that antisemitic remark.


Hofrat

Well Schindler claimed it was Beethoven in the 3rd revised edition of his biography (Munster 1860) - he also denied that there was any friendship between Moscheles and Beethoven and he even suggested (by falsifying entries in the conversation books) that it was he who had first introduced Moscheles to Beethoven!




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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
Wow, Moscheles' great-grandson? Very fascinating, Hofrat. If you write him again, maybe you could also inquire if he knows of any recording of the Moscheles arrangement of Fidelio? I'm intrigued by the possibility of a decent piano arrangement.

Moscheles is no slouch at the piano. His Etudes (Op. 95 and 111) are highly original and can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Henselt's, Alkan's, and even Liszt's. I also have numerous fantasias from him on Paganini and operatic themes. In one fantasy he ingeniously weaves at least 8 themes from different operas into a concise piece, with smooth transitions and some fine pianistic and I dare say "orchestral" effects. I have no doubt it showcases his improvisatory powers.

Therefore I have high hopes that such a skilled pianist could arrange a stellar piano score of Fidelio... Now to find it :\

There were several unflattering reports from Beethoven's circle including Cipriani Potter (1817-1818) who told Thayer that Beethoven had called him a 'mere player of passages'. Franz Oliva and Schuppanzigh also made several derogatory remarks in the conversation books.

However I agree with you and I think it was simply a reaction to the upcoming virtuoso Romantic style that Beethoven had little sympathy with - of course he wouldn't being a Classical composer!



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'Man know thyself'

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
Wow, Moscheles' great-grandson? Very fascinating, Hofrat. If you write him again, maybe you could also inquire if he knows of any recording of the Moscheles arrangement of Fidelio? I'm intrigued by the possibility of a decent piano arrangement.

Moscheles is no slouch at the piano. His Etudes (Op. 95 and 111) are highly original and can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Henselt's, Alkan's, and even Liszt's. I also have numerous fantasias from him on Paganini and operatic themes. In one fantasy he ingeniously weaves at least 8 themes from different operas into a concise piece, with smooth transitions and some fine pianistic and I dare say "orchestral" effects. I have no doubt it showcases his improvisatory powers.

Therefore I have high hopes that such a skilled pianist could arrange a stellar piano score of Fidelio... Now to find it :\

Dear NightKlavier;

Well, I will ask him upon his response to my last letter. Please bear in mind that he is a musicologist and not a CD dealer.

Well dear forum participants, the next time you are delving through those old papers in the basement or the attic, keep your eyes open for the manuscript of Moscheles' 8th piano concerto. This concerto was written and performed, but then was lost!


Hofrat

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well Schindler claimed it was Beethoven in the 3rd revised edition of his biography (Munster 1860) - he also denied that there was any friendship between Moscheles and Beethoven and he even suggested (by falsifying entries in the conversation books) that it was he who had first introduced Moscheles to Beethoven!

Dear Peter;

I tend to take Schindler's claims with a big grain of salt. He suffered a very severe case of "faithful servant syndrome:" fabrication of events to make up for paltry pay he received being Beethoven's secretary while suffering tremendous abuse.


Hofrat

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Peter;

I tend to take Schindler's claims with a big grain of salt. He suffered a very severe case of "faithful servant syndrome:" fabrication of events to make up for paltry pay he received being Beethoven's secretary while suffering tremendous abuse.


Hofrat

Absolutely Hofrat, I think he was such a bitter man. Of course we know he fabricated many of the entries in the conversation books as well as destroying others, all in a bid to present himself in a more favourable light. His actual dealings with Beethoven really only cover a small amount of time, about 2 years but he gives the impression he'd been on intimate terms with Beethoven since 1814.

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'Man know thyself'

[Nightklavier]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Well, I will ask him upon his response to my last letter. Please bear in mind that he is a musicologist and not a CD dealer.

I understand, but I thought with his expertise of Moscheles, he might also have an affinity for the interpretations or performances available out there, like Alan Walker to Liszt and Ronald Smith to Alkan. Although the latter was a pianist and wrote a few books, they both still have a grasp of what's been recorded or not recorded.

Thank you, if you decide to ask him about it.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
I understand, but I thought with his expertise of Moscheles, he might also have an affinity for the interpretations or performances available out there, like Alan Walker to Liszt and Ronald Smith to Alkan. Although the latter was a pianist and wrote a few books, they both still have a grasp of what's been recorded or not recorded.

Thank you, if you decide to ask him about it.

Dear NightKlavier;

I did pass your queries to the great-grandson. I still await his responses.


Hofrat

[Nelly]

Ignaz Moscheles (1794-1870), with Beethoven's consent, made a piano arrangement of Fidelio.


Hello - I was curious if you actually have the score for this? or if you only found a reference? I would be curious to get the score.
THANKS!

[Nightklavier]

I didn't find the score, but finding this CD with the Fidelio overture arranged by Moscheles prompted me to ask about it here.