Beethoven and Schubert

[Hofrat]

For the sake of accuracy, the Vienna Hofkapellmeister Anton Teyber dies in November 1822. It is suggested to Beethoven to apply for the position, and Beethoven does so in a letter dated 1 January 1823. Despite the court's inclination not to fill the position, various religious texts are sent to Beethoven in March 1823 for Beethoven's consideraation. Beethoven starts to sketch a mass in C# minor. In March 1824, Beethoven asks to be excused from composing the mass. In 1828, Schubert applies for the position and is rejected.


Hofrat

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:

Every single one of them is false.

Yes, that is what you said, but why do you say they are false?

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Yes, that is what you said, but why do you say they are false?

The name of the singer was Johann Michael Vogl. In 1820 none of Schubert's friends was a student anymore. Schubert was never surveilled by the police. He was coincidentally present when the police visited his friend Johann Senn, because Senn had told a well known police informer to leave an inn the night before. The police had absolutely no information on Senn and only arrested him when he refused to cooperate. In 1823 Schubert's father didn't live in 'the parents' home anymore, but had moved to Rossau. Furthermore Schubert's mother had already died in 1812. Schubert did not apply for the post of Hofkapellmeister, but for the post of Vize-Hofkapellmeister. The concert on 28 March 1828 was not ignored by the press. For details see Gerrit Waidelich's collection of printed Schubert sources ('Texte, Programme, Rezensionen, Anzeigen, Nekrologe, Musikbeilagen und andere gedruckte Quellen', Tutzing: Schneider 1993).

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:
The name of the singer was Johann Michael Vogl. In 1820 none of Schubert's friends was a student anymore. Schubert was never surveilled by the police. He was coincidentally present when the police visited his friend Johann Senn, because Senn had told a well known police informer to leave an inn the night before. The police had absolutely no information on Senn and only arrested him when he refused to cooperate. In 1823 Schubert's father didn't live in 'the parents' home anymore, but had moved to Rossau. Furthermore Schubert's mother had already died in 1812. Schubert did not apply for the post of Hofkapellmeister, but for the post of Vize-Hofkapellmeister. The concert on 28 March 1828 was not ignored by the press. For details see Gerrit Waidelich's collection of printed Schubert sources ('Texte, Programme, Rezensionen, Anzeigen, Nekrologe, Musikbeilagen und andere gedruckte Quellen', Tutzing: Schneider 1993).

Thank you! That was easy, wasn't it?

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:
Schubert did not apply for the post of Hofkapellmeister, but for the post of Vize-Hofkapellmeister.

Dear Cetto;

The Wiener Hofkapelle, like many of its contemporary court orchestras, had two Hofkapellmeisters. Each one was a vize-kapellmeister. Both Beethoven in 1823 and Schubert in 1828 applied for the same vize-kapellmeister position following Anton Teyber's death in 1822.


Hofrat

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Hofrat:

Dear Cetto;

The Wiener Hofkapelle, like many of its contemporary court orchestras, had two Hofkapellmeisters. Each one was a vize-kapellmeister. Both Beethoven in 1823 and Schubert in 1828 applied for the same vize-kapellmeister position following Anton Teyber's death in 1822.

Hofrat

Sorry, but this is wrong. Aside from the fact that for legal reasons one couldn't be a Hofkapellmeister and a Vizehofkapellmeister at the same time, the Hofkapelle never had two Vize=Hofkapellmeister. After Salieri's death Vize=Hofkapellmeister Eybler became Hofkapellmeister. Then the post of the Vize=Hofkapellmeister was vacant until Weigl was appointed Vizehofkapellmeister in 1826. See 'Hof- und Staatsschematismen des Oesterreichischen Kaiserthums', vols. 1822-28.



[This message has been edited by Cetto von Cronstorff (edited 11-09-2006).]

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:
Sorry, but this is wrong. Aside from the fact that for legal reasons one couldn't be a Hofkapellmeister and a Vizehofkapellmeister at the same time, the Hofkapelle never had two Vize=Hofkapellmeister. After Salieri's death Vize=Hofkapellmeister Eybler became Hofkapellmeister. Then the post of the Vize=Hofkapellmeister was vacant until Weigl was appointed Vizehofkapellmeister in 1826. See 'Hof- und Staatsschematismen des Oesterreichischen Kaiserthums', vols. 1822-18.

Dear Cetto;

It is my understanding that Franz Krommer was appointed hofkapellmeister of the Vienna court in 1818 and held that position until his death in 1831. With Eybler being appointed hofkapellmeister in 1824, we have two men holding the same title at the same time. Please explain that.

Hofrat

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Cetto;

It is my understanding that Franz Krommer was appointed hofkapellmeister of the Vienna court in 1818 and held that position until his death in 1831. With Eybler being appointed hofkapellmeister in 1824, we have two men holding the same title at the same time. Please explain that.

Hofrat

Krommer was not Hofkapellmeister, but 'Hofkompositor'.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:

Krommer was not Hofkapellmeister, but 'Hofkompositor'.

Dear Cetto;

You will have to explain the differences of these titles and functions.


Hofrat

[Megan]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Cetto;

You will have to explain the differences of these titles and functions.


Hofrat

Hofrat,
It may be that Krommer was court composer .

I think Bach was both Kapellmeister and Composer, hope someone will correct me if I am wrong.

'


[This message has been edited by Megan (edited 11-10-2006).]

[Preston]

If Schindler is to be believed we do have a definite meeting for Schubert and Beethoven - 19th March 1827. Beethoven on his deathbed was visited by Schubert in the company of the Huttenbrenner brothers and other friends. This was however denied by Spaun.

Friedrich Rochlitz however claimed they met in the summer of 1822, the year Schubert dedicated his duet variations to Beethoven.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-07-2006).]

Peter I was read this not long ago. This is taken from the book Beethoven His Life and Music by Jeremy Siepmann:

The rest of the story can be told by the composer Anselm Huttenbrenner, a close friend of Schubert's:

During Beethoven's last moments there was no one present in the death-chamber but Frau van Beethoven and myself. Beethoven lay in the final agony, unconscious and with the death-rattle in his throat, from three o'clock, when I arrived, until after 5 o'clock. Then there was suddenly a loud clap of thunder accompanied by a bolt of lightning which illuminated the death-chamber with a harsh light (the snow lay thick in front of Beethoven's house). After this unexpected natural phenomenon, which had shaken me greatly, Beethoven suddenly opened his eyes, raised his right hand, looked upwards, for several seconds and shook his fist, with a very grave, threatening countenance, as though to say "I defy you all, powers of evil! Away! God is with me." And his hand sank down onto the bed again, his eyes half closed. My right hand lay under his head, my left rested on his breast. There was no more breathing, no more heartbeat. The great composer's spirit fled from this world of deception into the kingdom of truth. I shut his half-open eyes, kissed them, and then his forehead, mouth, and hands. At my request, Frau can Beethoven cut a lock of his hair and gave it to me as a sacred relic of Beethoven's last hour.

I don't really believe it seeing as how I have read other things saying different stories, about other people being by his bed, etc. I don't like the part where Anselm writes that Beethoven looked like he was fighting of evil and God is with me, it makes it sound like Beethoven was going to hell, to me. Which I absolutely do not believe.

I once read that Beethoven's last words were, "Not yet! I need more time!". I like this far better than what Anselm writes.

So who knows, do any of y'all have any information on this?

[Peter]

I don't really believe it seeing as how I have read other things saying different stories, about other people being by his bed, etc. I don't like the part where Anselm writes that Beethoven looked like he was fighting of evil and God is with me, it makes it sound like Beethoven was going to hell, to me. Which I absolutely do not believe.

I once read that Beethoven's last words were, "Not yet! I need more time!". I like this far better than what Anselm writes.

So who knows, do any of y'all have any information on this?

Since no one else claimed to be in the room at the moment of Beethoven's death we may suppose that Huttenbrenner was telling the truth even if his langauge is rather fanciful. I don't think he was implying Beethoven was going to hell, he was describing what is I believe a common phenomena where immediately prior to death the body reacts in some way - Beethoven was unconscious and had been for a few days. His last words (a few days before his death) were apparently 'pity -too late' in response to some wine that was sent to him.

[atserriotserri]

Peter, according to Walter Nohl's article in Musical Quarterly, 1928, XIV, pgs. 553-562, apparently a chapter from his book "Ludwig van Beethoven, Aus seinem Leben und Wirken" (Berlin, M. Galle, 1927), Schindler is the source of that meeting in 1822. Schindler is quoted the following:

"Franz Schubert had a hard time of it in 1822, when he presented
the Master with the variations for four hands which he had dedicated
to him. The shy and at the same time laconic son of the Muses, in spite of Diabelli's introduction and the latter's translation of his feelings for the Master into words, played a part which was unsatisfactory to himself at this presentation. That courage which he had exhibited until he reached the house left him completely when he was confronted by the king of artists. And when Beethoven expressed the wish that Schubert himself write down the answers to his questions, his hand seemed paralyzed.
Beethoven ran through the copy of the music handed him and came
across an harmonic error. In a kindly way he called the young man's
attention to it, at the same time adding that it was not a deadly sin.
But Schubert, perhaps as a result of this very propitiatory remark,
completely lost his self-possession. Not until he was out of the house
could he regain it and give himself a rude scolding. He never again had
the courage to present himself to the Master."
That article is interesting but leaves a taste closer to read "the gossip's corner" than a rigourous article, so for me will remain as an open question if both met. Perhaps the book of the same author would be more explanatory or at least cite the sources when are not mouth-to-mouth.

One thing is important for me is to distinguish between "to be present in the same room" and "to meet each other" as a general question.

To summarize what's found on that article, we have, favourable to the meeting between Schubert and Beethoven:

The previous meeting described by Schindler.
Ferdinand Schubert, Franz's brother who said: "He often met Beethoven, whom he revered, and who often expressed his great appreciation for his songs, though the fact does not justify his being called, as he so often has been called, a Beethoven pupil".
Anselm Huttenbrenner, who told that Beethoven had the habit of appearing a couple of times a week in the stablishment of Steiner and Company (the Partenostergassel mentioned by Cetto), and that both (the own Huttenbrenner and Schubert) "would revel in Beethoven's meaty, occassionally sarcastic remarks, especially when foreign music was under discussion". (sounds more as being in the same place more than a meeting to me, doesn't it?)
Julius Benedict, pupil of C.M von Weber, who confirms those previous meetings, since in November 1823 he was present when Beethoven returned to Viena and among the young admirers who wished to pay their respects to Beethoven and hoped to be noticed by him were Broklet, Bohm, Holz, Linke, Mayseder, Schuppanzigh and Schubert.
A writing in a note-book by Holz in 1826 saying "Schubert has just been with him, they have been reading in a Handel score. He was very polite . . . he was always in evidence. He has much power of conception where songs are concerned. Do you know "Der Erlkonig"?"

Against the two composers having met:
Josef Huttenbrenner, one of Schubert's friends, who declared that Schubert told him that he had not met Beethoven at all on that 1822 occasion (presentation of the variations to Beethoven), but had handed the music to a servant.
Spaun, who mentioned that Schubert said "I am sorry that Beethoven was so unapprochable and that I never have spoken to him". Sounds quite conclusive, doesn't it?

Concerning Schubert's visit to Beethoven on the latter's deathbed, the author cites the Huttenbrenner brothers but in a different way I understand from Peter's post, because apparently were two different visits: Josef Huttenbrenner said that Schubert, himself and Teltscher, who wanted to make a sketch of Beethoven before his death went to visit him and Beethoven, fixed them with an inmovable gaze and make incomprensible signs with his hand, whereupon Schubert, deeply moved, left. The other brother, Anselm wrote to Ferdinand Luib on 1858 that 8 days before Beethoven's death he, Schubert and Schindler visited Beethoven and when Schindler asked who Bethoven wished to see first, he said Schubert, deducing from that the fact that had been known from former times.

As I said, nothing said is conclusive to me, but constitutes a good ground for discussing.

Concerning Beethoven's recognition to Schubert's genius is stated that Kreissle, who wrote the first Schubert biography, makes Schindler say:

"Seeing that the illness which, after four months of suffering, at last
ended fatally for Beethoven had made his habitual mental activity impossible
from its very beginning, it was necessary to find a distraction
appealing at once to his mind and to his taste. So I happened to present
him with a collection of Schubert's lieder and songs, some sixty in number,
and among them many at that time still in manuscript. This was done
not only in the hope of providing him pleasurable entertainment, but also
to give him an opportunity of making the acquaintance of Schubert in
his true inwardness, so that he might form a favorable opinion of his gifts.
The great Master, who before this had not known five of Schubert's
songs, was surprised at their number, and refused to believe that Schubert
Beethoven's and Schubert's Personal Relations 561
at that time (February, 1827), already had composed five hundred melodies.
Yet if he was surprised at their quality, he was astonished in the highest
degree when he came to know their contents. For several days in succession
he could not tear himself away from them, and every day he would
spend hours at a time on "Iphigenias Monolog," the "Grenzen der
Menschheit," the "Allmacht," the "Junge Nonne," "Viola," "The Maid
of the Mill" and others. With glad enthusiam he would cry, again and
again, "Truly, there is a divine spark in this Schubert!—Had I had this
poem I, too, would have set it to music!" And so with the majority of
the poems, whose subject-matter, contents and the original treatment
accorded them by Schubert he could not sufficiently praise. In the same
way he could hardly understand how Schubert found time to "set to work
on such long poems, some of them containing ten others," as he expressed
himself. By this he meant to say poems which were as long as ten others
put together, and of such songs in the grand style Schubert has furnished
no less than a hundred, by no means merely lyric in character, but
containing the most extended ballads and dialogue-scenes which, since
they have been dramatically treated, would be appropriate in opera itself,
and there, too, would not fail of their effect. What would the great
Master have said if, for instance, he had seen the Ossianic poems, the
"Burgschaft," "Elysium" and "Der Taucher" and other similar great
songs, that have only recently (1830) appeared. In short, the respect
which Beethoven conceived for Schubert's talent was so great that he now
wished to see all his operas and his piano compositions as well; but
his illness already had made such headway that this wish could no longer
be gratified. Yet he often spoke of Schubert, and prophesied "that he
would yet make a great noise in the world", regretting as well "that he had
not made his acquaintance at an earlier date."

Also a passage in Hornstein's "Memoirs":

"He (Beethoven) was indignant at the gossip which was then generally
spread about, that Schubert was a dissolute, sottish musician. . . . He
knew Schubert very well, repudiated such tittle-tattle out of his own
experience, and even proved the impossibility of these stories being true."

Once again, not conclusive, but some grounds for discussion.