Brahms' Razor Wit

[Chaszz]

If you will overlook a little opening aspersion on Beethoven's prose writing and grammar, you will be entertained by a series of clever acerbic wisecracks by Brahms. He may not be a candidate for greatest composer, but he is surely the best sacastic wit of the bunch. The one about the string player's tempos I thought was superb. I am glad he is not alive now so that I am not tempted to try to meet him and thereby get insulted.

http://www.slate.com/id/2150496/?nav=tap3

[Nightklavier]

Thanks for sharing that Chaszz. Brahms was certainly a character and startingly witty. But I guess that wit was too often misinterpreted as being mean, prickly and rude. I recall an anecdote that as he was leaving a party, he said, "If there is anybody here I have not insulted, I apologize."

Sarcasm or true outspoken feelings?

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Nightklavier:
Thanks for sharing that Chaszz. Brahms was certainly a character and startingly witty. But I guess that wit was too often misinterpreted as being mean, prickly and rude. I recall an anecdote that as he was leaving a party, he said, "If there is anybody here I have not insulted, I apologize."

Sarcasm or true outspoken feelings?

At this party, he HAD insulted everyone, who were all friends of his.

As I've written before on this forum, Brahms' father was a bass player who barely managed to eke out a living. As a gifted pianist, the pre-teen and young teenager Brahms was forced to work to help support the family, by playing in waterfront bars and dives near the Hamburg docks. The prostitutes in these bars made a fuss over the handsome youth and coddled him. He later said that he was filled with a sense of outrage and shame over these early years which never left him. This was probably why he never married, could not act on his undoubted feelings for Clara Schumann even after her husband Robert had died, resorted to prostitutes all his life, and developed his devastating brand of sarcasm.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 10-06-2006).]

[Sorrano]

Great article, there! Slonimsky (not sure if I got that right) had some stuff on Brahms that was quite funny in his anecdotal book of composers. Rossini was another that had great biting wit, too.

[Peter]

Thanks Chaszz for an early morning laugh - Especially loved the posthumous Lieder! As a counter to this gruff exterior, Tchaikovsy found him charming but loathed his music.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Very funny, Chaszz! Thanks! I'm thinking maybe Brahm's was a predecessor to Don Rickles?!!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Joy:
Very funny, Chaszz! Thanks! I'm thinking maybe Brahm's was a predecessor to Don Rickles?!!

That was my thought also, except for me Brahms is funnier than Rickles.

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Peter:
Thanks Chaszz for an early morning laugh - Especially loved the posthumous Lieder! As a counter to this gruff exterior, Tchaikovsy found him charming but loathed his music.

Maybe T. had a thing for beards and blue eyes



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"Wer ein holdes weib errugen..."

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
That was my thought also, except for me Brahms is funnier than Rickles.

Ha! Ha! When I saw Rickles do his show a few years ago I have to say I thought he was hilarious! And I was wanting him to insult me before the night was through. Never happened, dang it!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[DavidO]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Great article, there! Slonimsky (not sure if I got that right) had some stuff on Brahms that was quite funny in his anecdotal book of composers. Rossini was another that had great biting wit, too.

Another acerb wit among great composers was Debussy--who was also a damned good music critic. To me, Debussy was the Hazlitt among composers.

And then of course there was Berlioz, whose "Evenings With the Orchestra" is a front-rank classic.

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

As a gifted pianist, the pre-teen and young teenager Brahms was forced to work to help support the family, by playing in waterfront bars and dives near the Hamburg docks.

That Brahms 'had to support the family, by playing in waterfront bars and dives near the Hamburg docks' is a myth that was woven by his early biographers and was eagerly copied by lots of superficial authors. It's 100% fabrication and has been thoroughly debunked recently by Brahms scholar Styra Avins. See

Styra Avins: 'The Young Brahms: Biographical Data Reexamined', in 19th-Century Music, March 2001, Vol. 24, No. 3, pp. 276-289.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:
That Brahms 'had to support the family, by playing in waterfront bars and dives near the Hamburg docks' is a myth that was woven by his early biographers and was eagerly copied by lots of superficial authors. It's 100% fabrication and has been thoroughly debunked recently by Brahms scholar Styra Avins. See

Styra Avins: 'The Young Brahms: Biographical Data Reexamined', in 19th-Century Music, March 2001, Vol. 24, No. 3, pp. 276-289.

I am aware of these views. I also believe that several other Brahms scholars, such as Jan Swafford, have doubted this claim, pointing out that Brahms himself told the story many times to friends, and that he was a truthful person not ordinarily given to grand fabrications.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 10-12-2006).]

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

I am aware of these views. I also believe that several other Brahms scholars, such as Jan Swafford, have doubted this claim, pointing out that Brahms himself told the story many times to friends, and that he was a truthful person not ordinarily given to grand fabrications.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 10-12-2006).]

Brahms did not tell this story 'many times' to friends. He only told about his hard times when he was young, but he never mentioned that he had to play in bars and taverns when he was a child (which would have been illegal anyway). The story was published on 28 April 1897 by an anonymous author in 'Neue Zeitschrift für Musik' and from there was copied by almost everbody.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff:
Brahms did not tell this story 'many times' to friends. He only told about his hard times when he was young, but he never mentioned that he had to play in bars and taverns when he was a child (which would have been illegal anyway). The story was published on 28 April 1897 by an anonymous author in 'Neue Zeitschrift für Musik' and from there was copied by almost everbody.

Excerpt from a letter by Brahms biographer Jan Swafford in the March 18, 1999 New York Review of Books:

'...there is no question that the "myth" of the bars originated not with biographer Kalbeck but with Brahms himself. He related the story all through his life to any number of people, telling friends that it wrecked his relations with women, telling Clara Schumann (as her daughter recalls it) that "he saw things and received impressions that left a deep shadow on his mind."'



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 10-13-2006).]

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Excerpt from a letter by Brahms biographer Jan Swafford in the March 18, 1999 New York Review of Books:

'...there is no question that the "myth" of the bars originated not with biographer Kalbeck but with Brahms himself. He related the story all through his life to any number of people, telling friends that it wrecked his relations with women, telling Clara Schumann (as her daughter recalls it) that "he saw things and received impressions that left a deep shadow on his mind."'

Swafford is unable to provide a definite and reliable source. She is basically mistaken and now refuses to admit her error.