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**Peter** · 10-29-2006, 12:52 PM

The best book is The Classical Style by Charles Rosen, but it is technical and therefore presupposes a knowledge of music harmony and theory.

Not only are there stylistic diffences between Beethoven and other composers, but also between early and late Beethoven!

In the thread on influences I was looking to discover the early influences on Beethoven such as Clementi, Dussek, C.P.E.Bach, Forster, Cramner.

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'Man know thyself'

**Preston** · 10-29-2006, 12:54 PM

Thank you, Peter. Anything you would like to mention about the book or about Beethoven's style?

I find it interesting, too, about the differences in Beethoven's own styles throughout his life. I used to think that his styles didn't change much. This blew me away, when I thought this, that someone could write in the same styles when they were 30 as they did when they were 56!!! That would be amazing! He would have had to known everything when he was thirty that he knew when he was 56, in a sense, and would have had to know himself very thoroughly, very. I feel that Beethoven did have some or actually a lot of this, definitely.

Did his style change much from the time he was, say, 30 to 56? My musical abilities are not keen enough to be able to pick up on this.

Kind Regards,
Preston

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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-30-2006).]

**Sorrano** · 10-30-2006, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by Preston:
Thank you, Peter. Anything you would like to mention about the book or about Beethoven's style?

I find it interesting, too, about the differences in Beethoven's own styles throughout his life. I used to think that his styles didn't change much. This blew me away, when I thought this, that someone could write in the same styles when they were 30 as they did when they were 56!!! That would be amazing! He would have had to known everything when he was thirty that he knew when he was 56, in a sense, and would have had to know himself very thoroughly, very. I feel that Beethoven did have some or actually a lot of this, definitely.

Did his style change much from the time he was, say, 30 to 56? My musical abilities are not keen enough to be able to pick up on this.

Kind Regards,
Preston

One thing you might do on a preliminary basis is to look in depth at the first two symphonies and compare them with the 9th. Beethoven was in his early 30's when those 1st two symphonies were composed. If you are familiar with form and development of material, those are key areas that you can look at (listen to, sorry), that will give you some ideas as to how, for example, Beethoven expands the traditional sonata-allegro form. With a keener ear you'll hear harmonic differences, too, creeping into the later work. Key changes, modulations, etc. play roles in the development. Those are a few ideas to explore.

**Preston** · 10-30-2006, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by Sorrano:
One thing you might do on a preliminary basis is to look in depth at the first two symphonies and compare them with the 9th. Beethoven was in his early 30's when those 1st two symphonies were composed. If you are familiar with form and development of material, those are key areas that you can look at (listen to, sorry), that will give you some ideas as to how, for example, Beethoven expands the traditional sonata-allegro form. With a keener ear you'll hear harmonic differences, too, creeping into the later work. Key changes, modulations, etc. play roles in the development. Those are a few ideas to explore.

Thank you Sorrano, I was aware that people say that the first two symphonies are more in the style of Mozart and Haydn, but that the third is around the time when Beethoven said something like, "I am not satisfied with my work so far, from this day foward I will forge a new path". I believe he told that to a violinist. I guess I should I have said 33-34, in age, or when he decided to forge a new path.

I am looking into musical style and techniques, but slowly. I started to take piano but the place was not good and my teacher was not to studied in music. He was 15-17 years old. Not that that would be a problem if he new music very well, that would just be rarer, though. So now I am hoping that my talents and thinking will improve so that I can take from a virtuoso, in town, that taught someone I know.

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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

**Peter** · 10-30-2006, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by Preston:
Thank you, Peter. Anything you would like to mention about the book or about Beethoven's style?

I find it interesting, too, about the differences in Beethoven's own styles throughout his life. I used to think that his styles didn't change much. This blew me away, when I thought this, that someone could write in the same styles when they were 30 as they did when they were 56!!! That would be amazing! He would have had to known everything when he was thirty that he knew when he was 56, in a sense, and would have had to know himself very thoroughly, very. I feel that Beethoven did have some or actually a lot of this, definitely.

Did his style change much from the time he was, say, 30 to 56? My musical abilities are not keen enough to be able to pick up on this.

Kind Regards,
Preston

Yes Preston, in 1802 when he was about 32 he was coming to the end of the first of three stylistic phases in his career. It was around this time he expressed his dissatisfaction with his works and decided to go in new directions and this marks the middle or second period works (which show a marked expansion of sonata form). This continued up until around 1816 when he entered the final late phase characteristic of which are a meditative quality, with the working out of themes and motives to their utmost potential. There is also an increase in the importance of contrapuntal textures. New sonorities are created, with wide spacing of parts (last Piano sonatas). Trills are also of more significance as are silences. Beethoven no longer adheres to traditional classical forms and works may have just 2 movements (Sonata op.111) or as many as 7 (String quartet op.131).

The changes in his style are most consistently observed through the 32 piano sonatas. I do not believe your musical abilities are unable to detect the changes, you just need to listen to the Op.2 sonatas and then Op.53 or Op.57 to hear the change to the middle period. For the late period compare these works to Op.106, Op.109, Op.110 or Op.111. The same could be done with the string quartets Op.18 to Op.59 then to Op.131.

I think you will gain far more by listening to the music than reading any book. At this stage Rosen's book will probably seem incomprehensible as you have to have a pretty broad musical knowledge which can only be built up by exposure to lots of music!

People are often amused when they say they don't like Beethoven and I reply which one, early, middle or late? Tchaikovsky for example couldn't abide the late works but adored the middle period. Glenn Gould only really liked the early works though he regularly performed Op.109.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 10-30-2006).]

**Preston** · 10-30-2006, 01:52 PM

Thanks alot for the information, Peter. Are the differences that you said are between the middle and last styles, very very major differences? Or are the styles still similiar in ways?

Sorrano, just a quick question, if you don't mind answering, if you don't then I completely understand, but what kind of games are you into? I saw it in your profile, that you liked gaming.

Kind Regards,
Preston

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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-30-2006).]

**Peter** · 10-30-2006, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by Preston:
Thanks alot for the information, Peter. Are the differences that you said are between the middle and last styles, very very major differences? Or are the styles still similiar in ways?

Sorrano, just a quick question, if you don't mind answering, if you don't then I completely understand, but what kind of games are you into? I saw it in your profile, that you liked gaming.

Kind Regards,
Preston

The differences are very real, but obviously it is still the same composer - in other words Beethoven's style has to be seen as one that developed over many years (which is why a study of the 32 piano sonatas is the best medium to see this as they cover the transition periods), but even in the early works such as the Cantata on the Death of Joseph II there are elements of the late style.

The middle period works are sometimes also referred to as the heroic period and I think this element is not found in the late works which tend to be more inward looking, especially the quartets and sonatas.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

**Sorrano** · 10-30-2006, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by Preston:
Thanks alot for the information, Peter. Are the differences that you said are between the middle and last styles, very very major differences? Or are the styles still similiar in ways?

Sorrano, just a quick question, if you don't mind answering, if you don't then I completely understand, but what kind of games are you into? I saw it in your profile, that you liked gaming.

Kind Regards,
Preston

There are not many kinds of games I dislike, ha ha! Mostly I've been into 1st person shooters, rpg's (like Morrowind, Oblivion, Neverwinter Nights, and Dungeon Siege), realtime strategies, and some similiation games.

Peter is quite right about examing the piano sonatas to see the development and changes that Beethoven introduces into his music. Even the early works look ahead a lot into the later works and you can see in the first three sonatas some marked changes. Take the 3rd, for example, and note how Beethoven expands the sonorities of the piano. When you get to the 7th and look at the adagio you see a new kind of depth to the music, and it goes on and on as you explore them. This is one of the reason the sonatas are so great.

**Preston** · 10-30-2006, 09:46 PM

Thank you all for the information, it is amazing that it is all still Beethoven in ways. Especially that his style when he was younger, before his 1st symphonies, showed characteristics of his late style. What a genius, literally and seriously.

I finished the main quest in Oblivion, not long ago. Graphically an awesome game (not to be compared with good adventure games though), but I thought the story was terrible. Final Fantasy XII comes out tomorrow!!! I am going to EB games tonight at 12am to get it. They are going to be open for the game. I hope you don't play games like Doom III, I find those to not be good in nature and quite frankly unhealthy for the mind, he he. You should really try adventure games, www.gameboomers.com . Best of luck to you in your gaming!

Kind Regards,
Preston

------------------
"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 10-30-2006).]

**PDG** · 10-31-2006, 05:03 AM

Originally posted by Preston:

I finished the main quest in Oblivion, not long ago. Graphically an awesome game (not to be compared with good adventure games though), but I thought the story was terrible. Final Fantasy XII comes out tomorrow!!! I am going to EB games tonight at 12am to get it. They are going to be open for the game. I hope you don't play games like Doom III, I find those to not be good in nature and quite frankly unhealthy for the mind, he he. You should really try adventure games, www.gameboomers.com . Best of luck to you in your gaming!

Kind Regards,
Preston

What??

[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 10-30-2006).]

**PDG** · 10-31-2006, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by Preston:

I started to take piano but the place was not good and my teacher was not to studied in music. He was 15-17 years old. Not that that would be a problem if he new music very well, that would just be rarer, though. So now I am hoping that my talents and thinking will improve so that I can take from a virtuoso, in town, that taught someone I know.

What??

**Preston** · 10-31-2006, 06:06 AM

What do you mean PDG, by saying, What???

Kind Regards,
Preston

------------------
"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

**Sorrano** · 10-31-2006, 07:58 AM

Originally posted by Preston:
Thank you all for the information, it is amazing that it is all still Beethoven in ways. Especially that his style when he was younger, before his 1st symphonies, showed characteristics of his late style. What a genius, literally and seriously.

I finished the main quest in Oblivion, not long ago. Graphically an awesome game (not to be compared with good adventure games though), but I thought the story was terrible. Final Fantasy XII comes out tomorrow!!! I am going to EB games tonight at 12am to get it. They are going to be open for the game. I hope you don't play games like Doom III, I find those to not be good in nature and quite frankly unhealthy for the mind, he he. You should really try adventure games, www.gameboomers.com . Best of luck to you in your gaming!

Kind Regards,
Preston

I have played the Sierra adventure games of years past.

On topic, again, the quartets, also, provide a good yardstick of Beethoven's musical development.

**Preston** · 10-31-2006, 08:21 AM

I have heard that the string quartets are some of the greatest music ever created. I have heard it from several people. They actually had an interview with someone who knows a good bit about music on NPR about Beethoven's string quartets. Stating that they were the finest group of chamber music, ever created. I can post the link if you want it.

Kind Regards,
Preston

------------------
"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

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Beethoven: A stylistic comparison

Beethoven: A stylistic comparison

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