Beethoven vs. Mozart - VOTE HERE!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes I agree and quite frankly people tend to overvalue the early Mozart works due to his prodigy status. In fact only very few works written before he was 20 are masterpieces. Conversely as you say the early works of Beethoven are dismissed, but I would say they are easily comparable with those of Mozart at the same age, outstanding amongst them being the Joseph Cantata. However credit where credit is due and between the ages of 25-35 Mozart produced a string of great works comparable to Beethoven's equally astonishing achievements at that age. That Beethoven went further is because he came later and learnt from the models he inherited - this he himself acknowledged with works such as the C minor piano concerto being influenced by Mozart's in the same key.

Fair enough, however I was giving Mozart the 'luxury' or restricting my observation of Beethoven works just to that of his mid to late 20s and not up to the age of 35 which of course would be a different kettle of fish!

Volume is relevant but not ultimately as important as quality. In either case by volume Handel wrote more 'hits' by the time he was 26 than Beethoven and Mozart put together.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-20-2005).]

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes I agree and quite frankly people tend to overvalue the early Mozart works due to his prodigy status. In fact only very few works written before he was 20 are masterpieces.

We are not talking about the works Mozart wrote in his teens.

Beethoven's Opus 1 was written when the latter was 24...

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Rod:
I disagree. Mozart wrote nothing like Beethoven's op1, op2 op3, op5 or op7 op9 or op10/3 or the Pathetique for example, to name but a few! This is very complex sophisticated music.

No where near as great as Mozart's...


[This message has been edited by Opus131 (edited 07-20-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Opus131:
We are not talking about the works Mozart wrote in his teens.

Beethoven's Opus 1 was written when the latter was 24...

Yes but now we're turning this into an age contest! The fact remains that both composers were producing masterly works in their 20s - the best in Beethoven's case being sonatas such as Op.10/3 (the slow movement of which shows incredible emotional maturity) and the string trios Op.9.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Rutradelusasa]

Should this be an age contest, Mendelssohn surpasses all.
For me, Rod's posts lacks "for me", "IMHO", and such.

------------------
"Wer ein holdes weib errungen..."

[Rod]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:

For me, Rod's posts lacks "for me", "IMHO", and such.

In this type of 'discussion' this is a 'by default' assumption. Elsewhere you may notice I have used these phrases on occasion... as required (eg see the chain concerning the mp3 for the sextet Op81b).

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-21-2005).]

[Johan]

Originally posted by Opus131:
No where near as great as Mozart's...


[This message has been edited by Opus131 (edited 07-20-2005).]

Which works by Mozart?

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Rod:
In this type of 'discussion' this is a 'by default' assumption. Elsewhere you may notice I have used these phrases on occasion... as required (eg see the chain concerning the mp3 for the sextet Op81b).

I know it's a default, yet I wrote that because people are not seeing it, so they keep discussing their IMHOs with yours. This leads nowhere.


------------------
"Wer ein holdes weib errungen..."

[Rod]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
I know it's a default, yet I wrote that because people are not seeing it, so they keep discussing their IMHOs with yours. This leads nowhere.

Of course it leads nowhere, which is probably why Beethoven was reluctant to be drawn upon why he rated Handel above Mozart in the anecdote I mention above. But it allows everyone to know where we stand - a bit like the 'what we are listening to' chains, pointless, but also useful in that it shows how much time many people here are wasting on lesser composer's efforts.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-21-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Of course it leads nowhere, which is probably why Beethoven was reluctant to be drawn upon why he rated Handel above Mozart in the anecdote I mention above. But it allows everyone to know where we stand - a bit like the 'what we are listening to' chains, pointless, but also useful in that it shows how much time many people here are wasting on lesser composer's efforts.

No it shows what a wide diversity of styles exist within classical music and the fact that nothing is served by closing your ears to all but two composers. Beethoven himself despite his deafness was a little more adventurous than that and did not confine himself solely to Handel!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
No it shows what a wide diversity of styles exist within classical music and the fact that nothing is served by closing your ears to all but two composers. Beethoven himself despite his deafness was a little more adventurous than that and did not confine himself solely to Handel!

Ha Ha I knew you would bite this hook Peter! I suggest I am the most adventurous here. IMHO, to my mind, I doubt Beethoven would have wasted too much time with a lot of this stuff. Once bitten twice shy, as we say!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-21-2005).]

[untamed_personality]

Hello, new to this forum, just thought I'd share my thoughts.

I'm a rabid Beethovenian, for me his music is the greatest in terms of power and passion. However, I also adore Mozart and could listen to him all day. His music touches me differently, but it still touches me.

I agree with the person who said if you don't listen to both then you're short-changing yourself.

"Some champion Mozart, some Beethoven, some Palestrina, some Bach. All four of them, I say, or none at all." - Felix Mendelssohn

[Rod]

Originally posted by untamed_personality:
Hello, new to this forum, just thought I'd share my thoughts.

I'm a rabid Beethovenian, for me his music is the greatest in terms of power and passion. However, I also adore Mozart and could listen to him all day. His music touches me differently, but it still touches me.

I agree with the person who said if you don't listen to both then you're short-changing yourself.

"Some champion Mozart, some Beethoven, some Palestrina, some Bach. All four of them, I say, or none at all." - Felix Mendelssohn

Well Mendelssohn left out Handel!

Beethoven and Mozart are too much in the same fields for me to avoid direct comparison and then i always prefer Beethoven. For example Beethoven's manner with the piano I find is much better suited to the instrument than Mozart's. Whereas with Handel they are for the very large part in different compositional fields so they complement each other nicely. Thus I am compelled to judge Handel with the Baroque composers but also the Opera specialists, including Mozart, but not Beethoven to any degree. Fidelio is unsurpassed as an opera, but it is for me rather a unique composition within the genre.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-25-2005).]

[peter69]

Forget Van Beethoven (more transpiration than inspiration) or Mozart (simplistic and unfinished): only Bach (always surprising, always perfect, always touching the very soul of things) is the greatest of all time! Not only is this the general consensus of the music experts around the world today, it is also the opinion of Van Beethoven, Mozart and most other great composers:

Van Beethoven: "The eternal god of harmony!"

Wagner: "The most stupendous miracle in all music!"

Brahms: "Study Bach: there you will find everything!"

Verdi: "O you happy sons of the North who have been reared at the bosom of Bach, how I envy you!"

Copland: "If one were asked to name one musician who came closest to composing without human flaw, I suppose that general consensus would choose Johann Sebastian Bach."

Buckley: "If Bach is not in heaven I'm not going!"

And Mozart? In 1785 Mozart was in Leipzig to attend the instigation of Doles as the new Cantor. To this occasion a motet of Bach ("Singet dem Herrn ein neues Lied") was performed. After only a few bars, Mozart startled. After another few bars, he cried out: "What is that???". And now it appeared that his whole musical soul was in his ears and he listened with passion. When the piece was over, he cried out: "Now thát is something we can all learn from!"

And to conclude, the opinion of NASA biologist Lewis Thomas on what message we should send to an alien civilisation: "I would vote for Bach, all of Bach streamed out into space! But that would be bragging..."

It is not true that Mozart was the fastest writing composer in history. This honour goes all to Bach. No-one has ever written so much in so little time and of such a permanently high quality like Bach. In contrary to what some people have said, Bach also surpassed Mozart by far when it comes to musical inventiveness. No-one has written so many breathtaking arias and melodies like Bach. On top of that, Mozart has never succeeded in exploiting all the possibilities of a theme. His music is fragmentaric; it halts everytime it gets interesting, after which he continues with another idea. Almost never does Mozart succeed in bringing ideas together.

And the best proof of all: All of the great composers and nearly all of the great performers play(ed) Bach daily. Mozart, Van Beethoven, Shumann, Chopin, Liszt, Brahms,... all of them played Bach every day in order to bring their mind to peace and harmony. This can not be said of any other composer in history. Without Mozart, there would not have been Van Beethoven. Without Bach, there would not have been ANYONE! :-D

Cheers,

Peter

[Frank H]

Originally posted by peter69:
Forget Van Beethoven (more transpiration than inspiration) or Mozart (simplistic and unfinished): only Bach (always surprising, always perfect, always touching the very soul of things) is the greatest of all time!...


Without Mozart, there would not have been Van Beethoven. Without Bach, there would not have been ANYONE! :-D

Cheers,

Peter

So Bach invented music?

All composers owed a lot to their predecessors. And there were many composers before Bach. Without them, there would have been no "BACH" (music, not man).

As to who was the greatest composer in history, I believe there are 4 contenders, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, and Wagner. But that's just MY opinion. I personally prefer to listen to Mozart and Beethoven. But that's just MY personal taste.

There is an inevitably strong subjective element in all these sorts of discussions.

Regards,

Frank