Beethoven vs. Mozart - VOTE HERE!

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Rod:
For me Handel is the only composer in Beethoven's league, thus for me the Mozart discussion is of no real consequence! I don't rate Bach so highly.

But then again, as Peter said, this shouldn't be a contest, just a comparison for the sake of comparing.

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Gman:

And although I agree Mozart is easier to interpret

What are you talking about ?

Mozart is perhaps one of the hardest composer to interpret properly.

Don't understand how anybody could engage in such a superficial listening...

[Vipercat]

Originally posted by Rod:
Interestingly the top 500 works of all time survey by Classic FM (UK) at the end of last year had more entries by Mozart than any other composer, and the no1 work was a Mozart opera, no2 was B's violin concerto. They played all 500 works over the holidays and if nothing else is serves the purpose of showing how most classical music cannot be described as art, barely even B movie soundrack material, by B's standard. Of course I would rate Beethoven above Mozart in any genre you could care to mention. But I've heard an awful lot of awful Beethoven records, whereas Mozart music seems to be of a more stable level of interpretation, so I can easily understand if someone questions B's pole position (but lacks the foresight to understand that it is not the Master who should be inquestion). Also I cannot understand how Handel is not given more recognition - quite frankly the vast majority of JS Bach music I have heard is quite forgettable when heard alongside a similar Handel effort - there is little emotion of any kind in Bach for me, but rather a steely and rather detached perfection that is appropriate for the church but not for 'secular listening'.

UMMMMM....okay!!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Vipercat:
UMMMMM....okay!!

You're welcome.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Johan]

I couldn't agree more, Chris! Only Mozart's music to Don Giovanni comes near to Beethoven's in Fidelio!

[Johan]

Really an absurd discussion!

To the newly put arguments about Mozart and his music: Did Mozart want to unravel a distinctive (what would be undistinctive?) style in style let say as the Romantics did and is this then to be taken as the (a?) standard of a composer's level?
There are different ideas about music. The way I see Beethoven (his way certainly is subjective - an obsolete remark!) is that he made an effort of giving sublimacy to the universal soul of man - and thus is large and deep.

[Hietzing56]

Originally posted by Johan:
Really an absurd discussion!

To the newly put arguments about Mozart and his music: Did Mozart want to unravel a distinctive (what would be undistinctive?) style in style let say as the Romantics did and is this then to be taken as the (a?) standard of a composer's level?
There are different ideas about music. The way I see Beethoven (his way certainly is subjective - an obsolete remark!) is that he made an effort of giving sublimacy to the universal soul of man - and thus is large and deep.

Um, this is an interesting free-for-all but, as has been pointed out, sort of meaningless except in arousing us to come to the rescue of Beethoven or Mozart, as if they need our aid. I can just as easily claim that MAHLER is the greatest of all time and say, as "chopithoven" has, that I don't have to back up my claim in any concrete, defineable way because I know I'm right. MY criteria for establishing Mahler's total supremacy of all, by the way, is that his music is much louder, uses more instruments, and lasts way longer. So there. I have described my result and, after the fact, announced my criteria to back it up and if you don't like it I'll get gloomy and sulky. I have passed my own test with flying colours!

It's silly and unpleasantly "collegiate" to make surly claims and claim no responsibilty (ability?) to back them up. It's the intellectual equivalent of setting a paper bag full of dog poop on fire and watching everyone else do the reacting. I mean, it's fun for a while but what really gets accomplished?

There is no measurable "progress" in the arts or criteria for greatness other than your own emotional reaction; Mahler is not better than Bach because he came after him and Tom Hanks is not a better actor than Olivier just because he's more "our style." Now, if you don't mind, I have to settle that pesky Coke vs. Pepsi debate. I've already decided that Jolt Cola is the best - now it's just a matter of inventing criteria to prove myself right! As to Mozart being a bit of a decorative or harmless lightweight, listen to his late "Adagio and Fuge."

Also, how do I get my pin-headed responses to appear all bold and manly?

[michaeljoseph]

m ate in the kitchen with the other servants, what? b ate with the A Duke.

[Chaszz]

To say, as Rod does, that Beethoven produced masterpieces of greater maturity in his 30s than Mozart did, is irrelevant. They were very different personalities. Beethoven reached emotional maturity (such as it was for him) earlier in his life than did Mozart, who in many ways was a child. Mozart was very clearly on anew plateau of maturity at the end of his life, when he wrote the last symphonies and the Requiem. There is simply no telling what he would have written in five or ten more years. In many ways it would probably have been much closer to the first movement of Symphony No. 40, and the astonishing last movement of Symphony No. 41, than to "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik."

[Scion]

Liszt!!!!!!! >_<
Then Chopin, maybe Rachmaninoff next, although he wasn't as musical but purely skilled :S

[Hietzing56]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
To say, as Rod does, that Beethoven produced masterpieces of greater maturity in his 30s than Mozart did, is irrelevant. They were very different personalities. Beethoven reached emotional maturity (such as it was for him) earlier in his life than did Mozart, who in many ways was a child. Mozart was very clearly on anew plateau of maturity at the end of his life, when he wrote the last symphonies and the Requiem. There is simply no telling what he would have written in five or ten more years. In many ways it would probably have been much closer to the first movement of Symphony No. 40, and the astonishing last movement of Symphony No. 41, than to "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik."

For what it's worth, I was once told that if I wanted to get to "cut to the chase" in Mozart's music I should skip over anything under K.300; although pre-K.300 works by him have a ton of good moments, he was only 18 years old then and hadn't made the leap from wunderkind to "real" composer.

[Opus131]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
To say, as Rod does, that Beethoven produced masterpieces of greater maturity in his 30s than Mozart did, is irrelevant. They were very different personalities. Beethoven reached emotional maturity (such as it was for him) earlier in his life than did Mozart, who in many ways was a child.

In a similar vein, Mozart reached a greater compositional maturity in his 30s then Beethoven did.

Mozart's contrapunctual writing walks all over early and middle Beethoven (indeed, Mozart was just as good a contrapunctualist as Bach or Handel).

Comparing his 6 Haydn quartets or his 4 great quintets to Beethoven's Opus 18 and assorted early chamber music it's comparing a fully developed master to a talented but youthful apprentice.

He was also a better composer for the human voice and a better orchestrator (yes, despise Beethoven's symphonic superiority).

Really, Mozart had reatched a level of mastery and perfection comparable to late Beethoven, and this is from a man who wrote most of his greatest masterpieces in his late 20s.

People like to put too much empathy on emotion, it's like for most music didn't really exist until Beethoven came along to shake hearts and stir souls, but what about other equally important facets of the art of composing such as craftsmanship and mastery ?

Of course, i personally think Mozart could have not approached the level of emotional depth of Beethoven (not late Beethoven, that's for sure), but then again, i personally wouldn't have lost a lot of sleep over that ;-)

[Rod]

Originally posted by Opus131:
In a similar vein, Mozart reached a greater compositional maturity in his 30s then Beethoven did.

Mozart's contrapunctual writing walks all over early and middle Beethoven (indeed, Mozart was just as good a contrapunctualist as Bach or Handel).

Comparing his 6 Haydn quartets or his 4 great quintets to Beethoven's Opus 18 and assorted early chamber music it's comparing a fully developed master to a talented but youthful apprentice.

He was also a better composer for the human voice and a better orchestrator (yes, despise Beethoven's symphonic superiority).

Really, Mozart had reatched a level of mastery and perfection comparable to late Beethoven, and this is from a man who wrote most of his greatest masterpieces in his late 20s.

People like to put too much empathy on emotion, it's like for most music didn't really exist until Beethoven came along to shake hearts and stir souls, but what about other equally important facets of the art of composing such as craftsmanship and mastery ?

Of course, i personally think Mozart could have not approached the level of emotional depth of Beethoven (not late Beethoven, that's for sure), but then again, i personally wouldn't have lost a lot of sleep over that ;-)

I haven't heard any chamber music by Haydn or Mozart that surpasses Beethoven's opus sonatas and trios etc from even his mid to late 20s. Beethoven is simply light years ahead.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Johhan]

hi everyone.

I respect everyone opinion, and is logical that being this a Beethoven site everyone is goin to say tha Beethoven is the
best.
For me the greatest composer of all time is by far "MOZART", and i don`t think i`m alone in that judgment, most music history books and musical documentals describe Mozart as the GOD OF MUSIC. In fact of all the books that i have seen that speaks about the history of music, just one says that Beethoven, is the greatest.
Saying that MOZART is by far the greatest, is not saying that Beethoven is not good, i love Beethoven music; and i`m not goin to put my self in the position of "LOVE ONE, HATE THE OTHER"; i make this comementary because this thread seems more like an ""anti Mozart thread"", now as i say before i respect
everyone opinion, i just want to make clear that my position is not "LOVE ONE, DENIGRATE THE OTHER".
I consider Beethoven one of the greatest composer of all time, second only to Mozart, Beethoven music is powerful, energetic,
and overwhelming, if i like Mozart music most it is because is like hear the music of gods, divine and pure beauty, full of deep thoughts and psychological emotions, Mozart music is
truly a miracle, Mozart was not only the greatest musical genius of all time, he also had one of the most gifted brains in human
history,

RICHARD WAGNER SAID:

-The most tremendous genius raised Mozart above all masters, in all centuries and in all the arts.

I absolutely agree with Wagner judgment about Mozart.

Now you can say: all that people that wrote books about music and make documentals that says that Mozart is the greatest are idiots, and dont know anything about music,you may be right, many of that people are just music
critics and not composers.
But speaking of people that do know about music, here they are some quotes about Mozart.

-Mozart is the musical Christ. (Tchaikovsky)

-Mozart encompasses the entire domain of musical creation.(Chopin)

-Mozart shows a creative power of such magnitude that one can virtually say that he tossed out of himself one great masterpiece after another. (Claudio Arrau)

-Mozart is the greatest composer of all. Beethoven created his music, but the music of Mozart is of such purity and beauty that one feels he merely found it—that it has always existed as part of the inner beauty of the universe waiting to be revealed. (Albert Einstein)

-What a picture of a better world you have given us, Mozart! (Franz Schubert)

-Mozart’s music is so beautiful as to entice angels down to earth. (Franz Alexander von Kleist)

Beethoven him self knew that Mozart was superior, when he heard the piano concerto no.20, he said:

"we would never be able to do something like this".

I love the music of both composer, both were great genius, i just think that Mozart genius was supernatural in every sense. Mozart was a MUSICAL GOD and Beethoven was a genius
and a titanic composer.

SORRY IF THIS POST MAY OFFEND SOME PEOPLE HERE, I JUST WANT TO SAY MY OPINION IN THIS ANTI MOZART THREAD.

Best regards

[Sorrano]

It is difficult if not impossible to determine who is "greatest" when we cannot even come together on the terms that equate greatness. Threads, such as this, end up being more or less issues of personal preference. I know which composer I prefer but I cannot denounce the other in the least. Both have made a significant mark in the world.