Beethoven vs. Mozart - VOTE HERE!

[Peter]

Originally posted by SR:
You know Serge....


Both men were absolute geniuses. That is my opinion and that is fact. I repeat my earlier statement that if you don't listen to both you are short changing yourself.

Steve

It's nice to have someone who agrees! Why others find it necessary to 'prove' the greatness of Beethoven by rubbishing other composers I don't know. However I know that tastes change and my admiration for Mozart has grown over time. I came to Classical music primarily through Beethoven and his overpowering greatness can at first seem to put others in the shade - this I now know was a position of ignorance as I knew little of Mozart's work.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
I have already said that Beethoven is my opinion the greatest composer, but that doesn't mean that the others aren't great.
Of course, there is a level of greatness where, considering each one's characteristics, we can say that there is ONE that is the greatest. I think it is Beethoven, but it might be another one.
There is one truth, one fact about THE GREATEST COMPOSER, but my opinion is not a fact.

I don't disagree with you here! I accept that in your opinion Beethoven was the greatest composer. In my opinion he was one of 4 truly great composers (Bach, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven) who I find it impossible to choose between. That is just my opinion!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gman:

You don't think Bach has emotion? I personally find it hard to believe!

I believe it, I made much the same point in this chain myself and have said so often before. Bach too often lets his obsession with 'perfect' (and thus predictable) counterpoint get in the way of the music, thus the effect is that even with a potentially beautiful theme, Bach's treatment of it often makes the end result sound sterile, there is no harmonic boldness like one hears from Handel - aided by his generally more simple and varied harmonic treatment. I've sampled lots of Bach but get this impression in every case.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 01-10-2002).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I believe it, I made much the same point in this chain myself and have said so often before. Bach too often lets his obsession with 'perfect' (and thus predictable) counterpoint get in the way of the music, thus the effect is that even with a potentially beautiful theme, Bach's treatment of it often makes the end result sound sterile, there is no harmonic boldness like one hears from Handel - aided by his generally more simple and varied harmonic treatment. I've sampled lots of Bach but get this impression in every case.

Well I don't agree, nor did Beethoven who called Bach the Immortal God of Harmony - not word's one would ascribe to sterile music I think.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I don't agree, nor did Beethoven who called Bach the Immortal God of Harmony - not word's one would ascribe to sterile music I think.

I think even this comment by B hints at what I was getting at - Bach likes to have many voices in perfect harmony - I say there are too many voices in too perfect a harmony too often. I like at least a little drama or 'conflict' in my music - something which grabs the attention, something Bach provides little of but something which explains why I rate Beethoven and Handel above all. If you don't like the word 'sterile', I could say instead 'detached' relative to the likes of Beethoven. They and others like Mozart are certainly more 'rounded' musicians and composers than JS Bach.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by SR:
You know Serge....

The whole concept that Beethoven or Mozart is the BEST is just the most absurd thing I've run across.

Maybe so or maybe not - if it is ok to have, say, a top 4 as seems the acceptable norm, why not a top 2 or a top 1. Beethoven himself played this game and was quite prepared to state his champion. Standards are severely lacking in the world of classical music - a lot of it is 4th rate in my opinion, in fact if it wasn't for Beethoven and Handel I would have no interest in the genre whatsoever. I listen to the others only for matters of comparison!

Originally posted by SR:

Both men were absolute geniuses. That is my opinion and that is fact. I repeat my earlier statement that if you don't listen to both you are short changing yourself.

Steve

There are many types of genius. M's genius was like Mendelsons in that they were born with mature ability and seemingly had to think not too much about it. Whereas B's genius was that he made himself think about it whether he needed to or not - this is a superior kind of genius to my mind - and it is shown in his music.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 01-10-2002).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
I believe it, I made much the same point in this chain myself and have said so often before. Bach too often lets his obsession with 'perfect' (and thus predictable) counterpoint get in the way of the music, thus the effect is that even with a potentially beautiful theme, Bach's treatment of it often makes the end result sound sterile, there is no harmonic boldness like one hears from Handel - aided by his generally more simple and varied harmonic treatment. I've sampled lots of Bach but get this impression in every case.

I generally tend to agree with you on this, however, the irony for me is that the music of Bach that touches me most deeply are the instrumental fugues. Personally, I find Handel's vocal music more interesting than Bach's vocal, but I prefer Bach's instrumental for the emotional content I get out of it.

[bjorkster]

Rod makes an important point. If we are justified in saying "both men were geniouses...that is fact", this means we are measuring genius.

By saying these two are greater geniuses than Britney Spears, we are expressing an opinion. Who are WE to say who is a greater genius than who, right? I think that if one is allowed to state as fact that ANYONE makes greater music than ANYONE else, we are justified in saying that one certain composer is greater than another certain composer. Obviously, the difficulty in making such a choice would be immense, but by the standards which some in here have set, it can be done. My 2 cents.

[SR]

There is a list of composers who have written between some and alot of great music that have withstood the test of time. A PARTIAL list... (don't anyone get offended here)

Bach
Handel
Vivaldi
Hayden
Mozart
Beethoven
Brahms
Mendelson
Mahler
Chopin
Strauss
Wagner
Stravinsky
Tchaikovsky

These guys all wrote music that has lasted for a variety of reasons. Most of us classical afficianados have a short list as Rob mentioned 2,3,4 that we like most. Many pick one more name and he becomes
"my favorite" It's great and fine to have a connection with a composer whose music really speaks to you. We all should remember that "my favorite" does not equate to "the best". Other people have valid opinions and different tastes they are spoken too by different things. Their viewpoint is equally important.

There are two names from composer lists that always attract the most attention,get the most play and get involved in threads like this one, Beethoven and Mozart. When this thread started as a poll "Beethoven vs. Mozart" the replies could have come as one word answers, and being a Beethoven site I would expect about 100% Beethoven. For some reason numerous posters have seen fit to expouse their opinion of "my favorite" as a statement of factual "best" I've seen statements like "Just listen to the music, it's clear Beethoven is best" or the "I can objectively show how Beethoven is best" followed by a string of opinions and invalid comparisons. I offer this to ponder...

What would the objective criteria be for REALLY being able to pick a "best". Number of compositions ? Number of notes ? The order in which chords are used ? Number of melodies that can be sung in the shower ? Amount of money generated in composers life ? or afterword ?

Who would be a valid judge ? music historian ? composition professor ? Pianists ? Conductors ? Without a doubt it would take higher credentials that just a bunch of guys with CD's

There is also a long list of composers music that has faded away. Some was very good. There are several guys you've probably never heard mentioned that wrote over 50 operas. They must have been pretty good to keep getting commissions and filling theaters. Maybe the "best" is really somewhere in that group. Someone who did not have a wife or brother or friend who properly managed the composers estate to see that the music kept being played.

Now as to painters whos best Renoir or Van Gogh ?

If you just look at the paintings its clearly Van Gogh.


Enjoy the music, no matter who you love.

Steve

[Rod]

Originally posted by SR:


...Enjoy the music, no matter who you love.

Steve

Ultimately the sort of question like 'who is the best' concerns me not, it not the type of question I personally think of asking (though I do answer, for amusement purposes). I don't particularly think much of which 'B work is best' type questions however. I'm not interested in the slightest who anyone else regards as 'the best'. What only concerns me is that a hell of a lot of good B works are never performed!

You strangely mention Vivaldi above however - in my opinion the King of consistant underachievement apart from the 4 Seasons (perhaps he got someone else to compose them?!).



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Personally, I find Handel's vocal music more interesting than Bach's vocal, but I prefer Bach's instrumental for the emotional content I get out of it.

I suspect this position is the norm, but I would rate Handel's concerti over Bach's, and I've got some H sonatas that are brilliant and deep, and harpsicord stuff that sounds almost Beethovenian in invention and dynamism - never does the instrument sound so bold and powerful. Yet Bach's efforts have little emotional impact on me whatsoever! Bach's emotion is in suspention, tasteful, but not so much on a personal level for me. he spent too long in the church I think.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by bjorkster:
Rod makes an important point. If we are justified in saying "both men were geniouses...that is fact", this means we are measuring genius.

By saying these two are greater geniuses than Britney Spears, we are expressing an opinion. Who are WE to say who is a greater genius than who, right? I think that if one is allowed to state as fact that ANYONE makes greater music than ANYONE else, we are justified in saying that one certain composer is greater than another certain composer. Obviously, the difficulty in making such a choice would be immense, but by the standards which some in here have set, it can be done. My 2 cents.

They have to be set, but not by comparisons with the likes of Spears or Steps which happens all too often in classical music circles and strikes me as somewhat paranoid and even a little ignorant. As i think you are saying, is it not hypocritical to identify a supremacy of composer X over Spears but then refrain from comparing X with those in his own genre. I suggest it would be more difficult selecting the greatest pop star than the greatest composer, for there are fewer of the latter than the former!



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[SR]

>>>You strangely mention Vivaldi above however - in my opinion the King of consistant underachievement apart from the 4 Seasons (perhaps he got someone else to compose them?!).<<<<<

No real disagreement there, but the title of my PARTIAL (I know I left off alot of deserving names) was just "composers who have written some or alot of great music that has withstood the test of time"

Four Season would qualify him. What classical fan doesn't own at least one copy ?
I could certainly have have substituted say
Puccini or Rosinni or Copeland or Rimski Korsikov or Vaughn Williams or Berlioz or any of numerous others.

Steve

[Rod]

Originally posted by SR:


I could certainly have have substituted say
Puccini or Rosinni or Copeland or Rimski Korsikov or Vaughn Williams or Berlioz or any of numerous others.

Well, I would say your list was too long already and would not have been improved by the addition of the above! ;/

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Ultimately the sort of question like 'who is the best' concerns me not, it not the type of question I personally think of asking (though I do answer, for amusement purposes). I don't particularly think much of which 'B work is best' type questions however. I'm not interested in the slightest who anyone else regards as 'the best'. What only concerns me is that a hell of a lot of good B works are never performed!

I agree - at least we're trying to do something about it on this site!

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'Man know thyself'