Beethoven vs. Mozart - VOTE HERE!

[SR]

>>>Personally I think the Symphony was pretty well developed as a form in the hands of Haydn (in particular) and Mozart, but I do consider B's achievements in this genre to be the supreme examples<<<<<

I didn't mean the Symphony was not a developed form. Hayden really did that. It did however undergo changes, for example the minuet was dropped as a "required" movement. The 4 movement format pretty much stuck.

What I meant in saying the symphony did not have the same purpose in Mozarts day vs B's was that in Mozarts time it was a filler piece taking up space between arias and concertos on concert bills. It was not the reason people went to concerts. By the time B was reaching his peak it was the reason for the concert. That was due to changing tastes, changing size of concert venues and B certainly had great talent in that area causing public desire for more and showier symphonies.


Just imagine what might have happened had Mozart not died so young. Imagine a Vienna where B and M were competing for title of "top gun" both as pianists and as composers.


Steve (trazom)


Chris....

I got back on as SR. You're software is case sensitive. It might be a good idea to mention that at the sign on screen. Perhaps it's computer sensitive also because I swear I tried as upper and lower case yesterday at work with no luck. Here at home, no problem.

[SR]

Chopithoven....

Just where do you see Beethoven or Mozart polls at Audio Galazy ? I went to www.audiogalaxy.com and found Detroit Techno hip hop club threads, whatever the hell that is.

Steve

[Zon]

I feel that B has a greater dynamic range of emotion than Mozart. More power and creatvity.
However, Mozarts music was so different than Beethoven in many ways- harmony, rhythm, & melody which makes them impossible to compare. As far as who I like better, Beethoven. As a musician I feel Mozarts music sounds common, almost like POP music.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Zon:
As a musician I feel Mozarts music sounds common, almost like POP music.

Mozart common, like pop music????????? Now I've heard it all!

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SR:
It was not the reason people went to concerts. By the time B was reaching his peak it was the reason for the concert. That was due to changing tastes, changing size of concert venues and B certainly had great talent in that area causing public desire for more and showier symphonies.

It was also due to Haydn whose London Symphonies WERE the attraction and written with that in mind. Also Haydn had already begun the process of replacing the minuet with the Scherzo.

Just imagine what might have happened had Mozart not died so young. Imagine a Vienna where B and M were competing for title of "top gun" both as pianists and as composers.

Indeed, Mozart was developing along very interesting lines in the last few years - just where he would have gone, and what influence these two would have had on each other is anybody's guess.


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 01-08-2002).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
Mozart common, like pop music????????? Now I've heard it all!

I wonder what Zon thinks of "popa" Haydn!

[PDG]

Originally posted by TRAZOM:


I prefer Beethovens Violin Concerto to all 5 of Mozarts.

I would call them even on Piano Sonatas and String Quartets.

I slightly prefer Mozarts piano concertos.

I greatly prefer Mozarts Operas, where are Ludwigs ?

I greatly prefer Mozarts religious music.

Mozart's operas over Fidelio (great but the only one);

Beethoven's Violin concerto over Mozart's 5 (too juvenile);

Mozart's religious music over Beethoven's (Mozart was the better composer for the human voice);

Beethoven's symphonies over Mozart's (no contest);

Ditto the piano sonatas;

Mozart's String Quintets (his greatest music) over the lone Beethoven;

Beethoven's String Quartets (HIS greatest music) over Mozart's;

Mozart's Piano Concertos (the greatest piano cycle of their type, like the Beethoven sonatas);

Even on the Masses.

[~Immortal Beloved~]

Originally posted by bjorkster:
I'm interested in seeing how you explain your theory, chopithoven. That's quite a bold claim. Good luck.

Personally, I think Mozart is catchier, but I can't immerse myself as deeply into it. Beethoven, for me is much more passionate and dynamic. Overall, I think Ludwig Van is a greater composer.

Good one! I fortanilly agree with you.


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freedom for all- Ludwig Van Beethoven

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 01-15-2002).]

[Chris]

Originally posted by SR:
Chris....

I got back on as SR. You're software is case sensitive. It might be a good idea to mention that at the sign on screen. Perhaps it's computer sensitive also because I swear I tried as upper and lower case yesterday at work with no luck. Here at home, no problem.

I doubt that is needed. I have never seen anything with a non-case sensitive password. That would be highly stupid, actually


[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 01-15-2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:

Mozart's String Quintets (his greatest music) over the lone Beethoven;

Lone? Not quite so, did you not download the mp3 from B's string Quintet op4 at the rare page? Then there is a fantastic fugue and a prelude he also wrote circa 1817 - these are particularly good and it astounds me that they are not played. I've heard them once, played together as a single 'work' on the radio and it worked very nicely - these are fantastic.

PS the most compared B and M works are the quintets for winds and piano - the writers always give M the prize and come out with some patronising excuse for B's effort (op16) but it's all lies, lies and yet more lies - B's is light years ahead of M's from what I've heard, more so on my period instrument recording of both.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Tom Kristof]

Originally posted by Rod:
Also the issue about the symphony being in an evolutionary stage in Mozart's time - If so I would say it was with Beethoven alone that it finally evolved to a true art form, those symphonies composed after him are for the most part are in all seriousness a joke (those by Mahler, 'Rachmanilow' and Prokofiev immediately spring to mind). Beethoven IS the symphony.

I don't deny Beethoven's efforts in evolving the symphony, but you cannot seriously class the symphonies composed after him as 'jokes'. True, Beethoven may have had a greater impact on the development of the symphony than later composers, but, personally, I think that it is quite single-minded to state that Beethoven is symphony.

Tom.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Tom Kristof:
True, Beethoven may have had a greater impact on the development of the symphony than later composers, but, personally, I think that it is quite single-minded to state that Beethoven is symphony.

Tom.

I agree with that. Instead, let's say that Beethoven is SONATA and incorporate ALL forms and mediums that use the Sonata-Allegro forms.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Tom Kristof:
I don't deny Beethoven's efforts in evolving the symphony, but you cannot seriously class the symphonies composed after him as 'jokes'. True, Beethoven may have had a greater impact on the development of the symphony than later composers, but, personally, I think that it is quite single-minded to state that Beethoven is symphony.

Tom.

Well I can't think of a single Symphonic composer after Beethoven who matched his achievement. Brahms comes the closest, but they're not in the same league. The Symphony did reach the summit with Beethoven, particularly the 9th which spawned many pale immitations from the Romantics. Having said that, I do actually quite like many 'Romantic' symphonies, but I don't regard them as an advance on Beethoven.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Tom Kristof:
I don't deny Beethoven's efforts in evolving the symphony, but you cannot seriously class the symphonies composed after him as 'jokes'. True, Beethoven may have had a greater impact on the development of the symphony than later composers, but, personally, I think that it is quite single-minded to state that Beethoven is symphony.

Tom.

I stand by my previous comment, the symphony went into retrograde during the Romantic period as far as i am concerned. these composers had no idea how to convincingly portray music drama in a way that was natural to Beethoven.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Zon]

By the word "POP" I meant it in its own truest sense of the word, derived from POPULAR. I love Mozarts music I listen to him at least once a day.

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"To play without passion is inexcusable!" - Ludwig van Beethoven