Beethoven vs. Mozart - VOTE HERE!

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Peter:
Why does one have to be better than the other? Both are great, isn't that enough?
Is Michelangelo greater than Leonardo da Vinci? Or Shakespeare greater than Goethe? I don't know. If you ask most musicians they will tell you that Mozart was the greatest composer who ever lived - to me he is one of the greats along with Beethoven, Handel and Bach. Each of these 4 composers reached the summit in different, not better ways.

I don't think so, excuse me.

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
I don't think so, excuse me.

You've done nothing except offer your opinion and disagree with everyone elses - if it is written in stone that Beethoven is superior to Mozart as you claim, then prove it. It is not enough to say Beethoven was great because of his music, that is obvious and applies to Mozart as well. I find this whole debate extraordinary - why is it so ingrained in the human condition that someone has to be the best? Mozart was a great composer, Beethoven was a great composer, Handel was a great composer - I have no need to choose between them.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 01-07-2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
You've done nothing except offer your opinion and disagree with everyone elses - if it is written in stone that Beethoven is superior to Mozart as you claim, then prove it. It is not enough to say Beethoven was great because of his music, that is obvious and applies to Mozart as well. I find this whole debate extraordinary - why is it so ingrained in the human condition that someone has to be the best? Mozart was a great composer, Beethoven was a great composer, Handel was a great composer - I have no need to choose between them.

Trouble with your position here Peter is that some people think that Wagner is the greatest - are we to tollerate this too or are you prepared to realise a lack of taste here? Where will it all end?

On the other hand Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn rated Handel the best, and Handel said Purcell would have been better than him had he lived longer. By this logic Purcell could be the best...had he lived!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
Is Michelangelo greater than Leonardo da Vinci? Or Shakespeare greater than Goethe? I don't know.

I do: Shakespeare didn't exist!!

Re Michelangelo, are you still with us, Mary (MCS)?

[PDG]

Maybe what Chopithoven is trying to convey here is that with Beethoven, we are talking about the greatest communicator of the human spirit through music. His music is more personal than Mozart's; totally sympathetic with the human experience, and sincere, almost beyond belief.

I think it's fair to say that even among those for whom Beethoven is not the favourite, he is still regarded as the greatest.

[TRAZOM]

The idea that any composer of the status of Mozart and Beethoven could be chosen to be the best is absurd.

It is an issue of preference. Someone said that it's easy to pick between Beethoven or Rossini. It may be easier, but how well do you know Rossini's works ? The fact that they are not as fequently recorded nor as available does not always mean they are not as good. In Mozarts time for example Salieri was far more succesful. Today it's virtually unknown. Is it unknown because it's bad ? How could it all be bad if he beat Mozart heads up while both lived ?

On a very general basis I prefer Beethovens symphonies, (but Mozart wrote about 40 more, and the symphony was not written for the same purpose in Mozarts day, it was evolving.)

I prefer Beethovens Violin Concerto to all 5 of Mozarts.

I would call them even on Piano Sonatas and String Quartets.

I slightly prefer Mozarts piano concertos.

I greatly prefer Mozarts Operas, where are Ludwigs ?

I greatly prefer Mozarts religious music.


If you don't listen to both you are short changing yourself.

Regards

Steve

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Peter:
You've done nothing except offer your opinion and disagree with everyone elses - if it is written in stone that Beethoven is superior to Mozart as you claim, then prove it.

I don't need to prove it. Hear his music and it will became very clear. Of course, Mozart might be better than Beethoven in one single aspect, or in one single type of composition, like operas, where Beethoven had little intervention.

Originally posted by PDG:

Maybe what Chopithoven is trying to convey here is that with Beethoven, we are talking about the greatest communicator of the human spirit through music. His music is more personal than Mozart's; totally sympathetic with the human experience, and sincere, almost beyond belief.
I think it's fair to say that even among those for whom Beethoven is not the favourite, he is still regarded as the greatest.

Completely right what is stated above. I want to say again that this is part of the basis of my theory.

[Chris]

Originally posted by TRAZOM:
On a very general basis I prefer Beethovens symphonies, (but Mozart wrote about 40 more, and the symphony was not written for the same purpose in Mozarts day, it was evolving.)

Good call.

I prefer Beethovens Violin Concerto to all 5 of Mozarts.

Me too (though No. 5 is a favorite piece of mine).

I would call them even on Piano Sonatas and String Quartets.

I can see why someone MIGHT think that about the string quartets, but I have no idea how you can put their piano sonatas on the same level. I think Beethoven's were far, FAR greater in just about every way.

I slightly prefer Mozarts piano concertos.

I really don't, but I understand someone thinking that way.

I greatly prefer Mozarts Operas, where are Ludwigs?

While I think Fidelio was superior to any individual effort of Mozart's in this area, it is hard to give Beethoven the crown, seeing as how Mozart wrote many, many great operas.

I greatly prefer Mozarts religious music.

I suppose I agree, when it is seen as religious music only (i.e. used in religious context).

[TRAZOM]

>>>>I can see why someone MIGHT think that about the string quartets, but I have no idea how you can put their piano sonatas on the same level. I think Beethoven's were far, FAR greater in just about every way.<<<<<

I can understand how someone might think that, it's just my preference. It's not about likeing one a dislikeing another. I love most all of them, by both men.


As to opera I think it's not even close, not just in the lack of balance (19 operas to 1)
but in quality. IMO Figaro is the greatest opera ever written by anyone, followed closely by Zauberflote and Don Giovanni. I would also place Idomeneo and Abduction From The Seraglio above Fidelio.

Regards

Steve

On another subject Chris...

I was registered here as SR previously. When I tried to sign on again I was denied as my password was deemed incorrect. I'm pretty sure that wasn't true, but as I have changed email addresses I couldn't have you notify me by email as to what my password was. I'd never have gotten the email. I re-registered as a new identity. I'd like to go back if you'd wipe the old SR I'll come in again as that. If thats succesful then you can wipe this new identity

Regards

Steve

[Chris]

Originally posted by TRAZOM:
As to opera I think it's not even close, not just in the lack of balance (19 operas to 1) but in quality. IMO Figaro is the greatest opera ever written by anyone, followed closely by Zauberflote and Don Giovanni. I would also place Idomeneo and Abduction From The Seraglio above Fidelio.

Eh. The only Mozart opera I see getting anywhere close to Fidelio's quality is Don Giovanni (my favorite Mozart opera).

On another subject Chris...

I was registered here as SR previously. When I tried to sign on again I was denied as my password was deemed incorrect. I'm pretty sure that wasn't true, but as I have changed email addresses I couldn't have you notify me by email as to what my password was. I'd never have gotten the email. I re-registered as a new identity. I'd like to go back if you'd wipe the old SR I'll come in again as that. If thats succesful then you can wipe this new identity

Regards

Steve

If you want to save your old post count, I could manually look up your password on the system and e-mail it to you. Just let me know the e-mail address you want it sent to (and I will edit that username to reflect your new e-mail while I'm at it). If you'd rather just have it wiped, that's fine too - let me know.

[Tom Kristof]

On the matter of personal taste, it largely depends on much exposure you have had to a particular composer and your perception of the works that you have heard. The two composers of which I have had the most exposure to are Edward Elgar and Beethoven, and they are my favourite composers.

This is where I agree with Steve (TRAZOM), it is difficult to judge composers if you are unaware with the majority of the music of one of the composers you are comparing. Are you comparing composers on amount of music you have heard by them? If so, you are doing a diservice to both of them.

It is also difficult to compare composers on a whole, in fact it is impossible. What it comes down to on every occasion is your personal taste. It is especially difficult to say that another composer is better than any other, because they all have there personal styles, different influences, and a different perception of music. What attracts a listener to a composer, in my opinion, is their style or 'voice'. Therefore any comparison of composers usually come down to personal opinion. Which shows any debate on who is the greatest composer to one that will never have complete agreement, which is how it should be.

In the case of comparing seperate works between different composers (eg. the string quartet of Elgar with the string quartets of Beethoven.) I find this, again, difficult. There are so many differences, and things that I might like about one composition, but dislike in another. It is even more difficult given the difference in the time of composition of the works.

On another matter, the local radio station here did a survery to the listeners favourite pieces late last year. The results were: 1. Mozart: Clarinet Concerto, 2. Vaughn Williams: The Lark Ascending.

Tom.

[This message has been edited by Tom Kristof (edited 01-08-2002).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
I don't need to prove it. Hear his music and it will became very clear. Of course, Mozart might be better than Beethoven in one single aspect, or in one single type of composition, like operas, where Beethoven had little intervention.

I think I'm pretty familiar with Beethoven's music - I wonder how familiar with the really great Mozart works you are? The String Quintets K.515, K.516, and K.593 for example. The Divertimento K.563 or the Serenade K.388. There are a dozen or so of the 27 piano concertos that stand comparison with the Beethoven piano concertos, and at least 6 of the symphonies that are truly great, not to mention the operas! If none of that convinces you that Mozart was not some 2nd rater, then try the Ave Verum Corpus - 46 bars of the most sublime music ever written.

Of course Beethoven was great, but he wasn't the only great composer! As I said for me the greatest 4 were Bach, Handel, Mozart and Beethoven - this is a personal choice and you can't say that is wrong, you can only say you disagree and that is your personal opinion not fact.



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Regarding the discussion about Mozart operas it has occured to me that it was Cosi fan tutte that was the No1 work in the Classic FM survey - not a piece mentioned above by Mozartians! Nevertheless I accept B cannot be construed as an opera specialist with just 1 opera - in this context I prefer Handel to Mozart for what It's worth, but I rate Handel as the supreme vocal specialist so I'm biased.

Also the issue about the symphony being in an evolutionary stage in Mozart's time - If so I would say it was with Beethoven alone that it finally evolved to a true art form, those symphonies composed after him are for the most part are in all seriousness a joke (those by Mahler, 'Rachmanilow' and Prokofiev immediately spring to mind). Beethoven IS the symphony.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Also the issue about the symphony being in an evolutionary stage in Mozart's time - If so I would say it was with Beethoven alone that it finally evolved to a true art form, those symphonies composed after him are for the most part are in all seriousness a joke (those by Mahler, 'Rachmanilow' and Prokofiev immediately spring to mind). Beethoven IS the symphony.

Personally I think the Symphony was pretty well developed as a form in the hands of Haydn (in particular) and Mozart, but I do consider B's achievements in this genre to be the supreme examples.

P.S Cosi contains some fine music, though like Chris, Don Giovani is my favourite amongst Mozart operas.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Personally I think the Symphony was pretty well developed as a form in the hands of Haydn (in particular) and Mozart, but I do consider B's achievements in this genre to be the supreme examples.

I would not argue with this, but I was stating simply that the evolution of the symphony as true art stopped with Beethoven.

Originally posted by Peter:

P.S Cosi contains some fine music, though like Chris, Don Giovani is my favourite amongst Mozart operas.

Well you may recall my comments upon seeing a live performance of DG and spending much time looking at my watch! May I add that Handel has wrote some first rate dramatic operas that took me by surprise on first hearing, check out 'Orlando' by Hogwood or Christie... if you've got £47.99 to spare (roll on the Euro but we'll not get it in the UK if we have a referendum - too many rednecks here).

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 01-08-2002).]